Topic: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I had some discussion with one of the Devs about upcoming plans for this game. Nothing is official yet as to what exactly it will be.

Their goal is to have F2P and P2P. However, I thought the Micropay might help the company with funds as well as allow F2P decide how much they willing to pay (below P2P rate) and for P2P for bonus stuff.

Now many already know that any games with Item-Shop Micropay-system will totally wreck the market. Here (I think) they are avoiding any "tradeable" items which could cripple the market.

So.. what will be on Micropay then? Well I came up with few things, maybe some of you have more ideas. Remember the key is that it cannot be items that can make the user over powered, invincible or any trade-able items. Just concept ideas.

1 - Greigo Bot Insurance - More insurance payout than standard if user dies.

2 - Professional Bot Paint Shop - Allows user to purchase dye/paint or paint pattern for their bot.

3 - Banner Shop - (Not sure if possible) Allows user to put Corp Banner on their bot, or just any symbols from the list.

4 - Charming Pilots - Bonus to mission rewards.

5 - Persuasive Pilots - Bonus to faction rewards/adjustments.

6 - Personal Teleport Transponder - Able to teleport back to home base from any location (as long as not in combat or within range of any mobs/player)

7 - Advance Geolocial Report - Automatically updates the "scanned" area for the user, if none scanned, nothing to update.

8 - Bot Fashion - Gives your bot a whole new look - Mohawk spikes (made from metal), horns, Sunglassse, micro guns (not usable), Satelites, Attenas, Bluetooth, etc.

9 - Personal Hauler - Something smaller than Sequer, follows the user around and loots on command. However it is not invulnerable, can be destroyed by any PvPer (new one can be requested at base), but not targetable by mob? Still playing with this idea.

10 - EP enhancer (for F2P users) - 1 week normal EP rate (just like P2P)

Some of these will have to be a time frame pay. Example:
Persuasive Pilot - Bonus to faction adjustment - 1 day, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month payment options.

Others are 1 time pay per request, such as Paint job/color.

And there is 1 time pay for life time - Such as Personal Hauler (think this better time frame limit), Bot Fashion, etc.

Aranoh

Last edited by Ashenar (2009-12-15 22:43:48)

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

More leaning towards P2P. F2P usually ends up hurting a game as well as having it lost in the millions of F2P games out there. Micropay normally destroys a game because it rewards those with the most money rather than commitment and time spent in the game which leads to population drop.. Because if someone can just buy what you just spent hours trying to earn then what's the point of playing.

Yes, P2P does turn some people off but it keeps a constant amount of funds flowing that will help the game developmentally, keeps the community and subscriber base mature, makes the game stand out in the flood of MMOs out there and gives a first impression that the game is quality enough to be subscribe only.

My 2 cents? P2P only with varied options (World pay, Paypal, CC/Debit) and a free trial so people can try the game out.

The company and the community get the most benefit from a P2P business plan.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Sure F2P could destroy the game to certain extend, but also depends on how the dev's manage the game/server, especially when it comes to Gold Spammers and farmers. I have yet to see a game that actually takes action against those Gold sellers. Yes those can destroy the game.

True that more kids will be in this game. But look at it this way, best place to frag some immature kids wink. Yet some of those kids have money and willing to pay quiet a bit in Micropay system.

Now, micropay system in this game i hope is different. Yes I do agree that there is no point on working on something when you can purchase it. However, the ideas I have listed above are just concept or brainstorms. Bot Color/Paint will have no effect on the outcome of a player, its more of a... prestige, doesn't effect their income, don't lvl faster, and still have to work as hard as the others.

Faction or Mission bonus rewards, well okay, I see your point. But then again, might not have too much of an effect. 5% bonus just means 5% less work, more time fragging.

I however do disagree about having items that actually boosts player quiet a bit to the point of not needing to work hard at all. That's why I was still debating about the "Personal Hauler" which I think should scratch that from the list. Also as the Dev mentioned, they do NOT want any items that is tradeable, meaning there will be NOTHING on the market that is purchased from Micropay system. Therefor will have 0 effect on market, which then has 0 effect or minimal effect on overall gameplay or the amount of hard work that needs to be put in.

As to sticking to P2P true, it is a steady income but a small amount. Add F2P any of them can be a potential P2P which a trial period can't do. And even Micropay system has its benefits as well, yes most people will rather play F2P, but once they see that P2P get faster EP than F2P , or when they see how cool a robot could look like with new paint job, then they will pull out some money and hand it over. But when you restrict people to P2P right off the bat, then you already have cut off many potential customers/clients. Got to lure them in, fish them, and they will take the bait. I have seen people who actually spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on item-shop/micropay. Even those who swear never to spend a dime, end up chucking out couple hundred. Sure other MMO item-shop boosts players which destroys the game. Okay. True, but what makes you think that no one wants to look different with paint job, or bot head dress/custom looks, etc? They will bite for it, even the P2Per will dig deeper into their pockets.

So, at the end it is matter of balancing between, profit, server capability, crew. If the server still can take big chunk of players, might as well do the F2P and Micropay for more money. Now if it would cost lot more to maintain server for the users vs the money coming in. Then sure P2P only would be best option.

Last edited by Ashenar (2009-12-16 11:07:15)

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

With all MMORPGs that I have played (cant count with my fingers and toes together) best games have been P2P MMOs. Only good F2P MMOs have been Runes of Magic and Atlantica Online.

Many of the P2P games have been good in some way, but nor enough intresting for me. Most of the F2P have been plain horrible with graphics, gameplay, tech support and uninteresting copies of already released games.

Most of my F2P experiences have ended with cash shop exclusive super itmes which either sooner or later are added to gain more income from it. P2P usually seem to implement a lot of new ideas faster, fix things faster and be better with graphics and gameplay usually is a lot "cleaner".

I once sat down to think about what MMOs should I really start playing. I don't have huge income so F2P really seemed good option. But then I started thinking of all F2P that I had played, all of them had some minor elements which don't seem to get fixed, patches are slow to deploy and new stuff usually get ingame only once in a year. Adding the cash shops given bonus to "free paying customers" I really started to think why I should not pay to play MMO that don't have these problems or at least they aren't as big problems.
I could not really tell enough reasons not to pay so now I play mostly P2P and test out some F2P MMOs to see how they are doing.
Usually they seem to be doing as most P2P MMOs 1-3 years ago.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

My 2 Nic's worth

I think the F2P MMo's are mostly not worth it as the dev's can never get funds to develop them.

I dont like games as has been said elsewhere where a player can use a large amount of real money to buy their way through the game it just does not work.

Using micropay for things like fancy paintwork however I can see being good for theDev's and it wont hurt the game so I am not against that kind of thing

If I can pay monthly by paypal etc I will be happy...

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Kveldulfson wrote:

My 2 Nic's worth

I think the F2P MMo's are mostly not worth it as the dev's can never get funds to develop them.

I dont like games as has been said elsewhere where a player can use a large amount of real money to buy their way through the game it just does not work.

Using micropay for things like fancy paintwork however I can see being good for theDev's and it wont hurt the game so I am not against that kind of thing

If I can pay monthly by paypal etc I will be happy...

I see no reason to write EXACTY this again, so i just quote it. p2p ftw, with some extra fancy stuff to those who pay more (robot colors/alternate skins, etc).

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Ashenar wrote:

Sure F2P could destroy the game to certain extend, but also depends on how the dev's manage the game/server, especially when it comes to Gold Spammers and farmers. I have yet to see a game that actually takes action against those Gold sellers. Yes those can destroy the game.

True that more kids will be in this game. But look at it this way, best place to frag some immature kids wink. Yet some of those kids have money and willing to pay quiet a bit in Micropay system.

If those kids have money and are willing to pay, then why don't they just subscribe monthly?

Now, micropay system in this game i hope is different. Yes I do agree that there is no point on working on something when you can purchase it. However, the ideas I have listed above are just concept or brainstorms. Bot Color/Paint will have no effect on the outcome of a player, its more of a... prestige, doesn't effect their income, don't lvl faster, and still have to work as hard as the others.

Faction or Mission bonus rewards, well okay, I see your point. But then again, might not have too much of an effect. 5% bonus just means 5% less work, more time fragging.

I however do disagree about having items that actually boosts player quiet a bit to the point of not needing to work hard at all. That's why I was still debating about the "Personal Hauler" which I think should scratch that from the list. Also as the Dev mentioned, they do NOT want any items that is tradeable, meaning there will be NOTHING on the market that is purchased from Micropay system. Therefor will have 0 effect on market, which then has 0 effect or minimal effect on overall gameplay or the amount of hard work that needs to be put in.

As to sticking to P2P true, it is a steady income but a small amount. Add F2P any of them can be a potential P2P which a trial period can't do. And even Micropay system has its benefits as well, yes most people will rather play F2P, but once they see that P2P get faster EP than F2P , or when they see how cool a robot could look like with new paint job, then they will pull out some money and hand it over. But when you restrict people to P2P right off the bat, then you already have cut off many potential customers/clients. Got to lure them in, fish them, and they will take the bait. I have seen people who actually spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on item-shop/micropay. Even those who swear never to spend a dime, end up chucking out couple hundred. Sure other MMO item-shop boosts players which destroys the game. Okay. True, but what makes you think that no one wants to look different with paint job, or bot head dress/custom looks, etc? They will bite for it, even the P2Per will dig deeper into their pockets.

But that's the reason for the trial. Potential customers are going to play the trial before pulling out some money and handing it over. That's the lure and fish. F2P mostly lures in those who are looking for an MMO that is free. Those people who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars in an item shop are the ones that screw the game for those who 1.) Don't have that spare money to use 2.) Who actually play the game and work hard at it. Almost 90% of games with an item shop lose population, as well as turns off potential subscribers. What's the point of subscribing when F2P Jonny here is just bu ying his things. Think of it this way 27 people have 15$ a month to spare for a subscription. Only 2 out of those 27 have extra money to spare on an item shop. You are making more money with a solid subscription plan.

So, at the end it is matter of balancing between, profit, server capability, crew. If the server still can take big chunk of players, might as well do the F2P and Micropay for more money. Now if it would cost lot more to maintain server for the users vs the money coming in. Then sure P2P only would be best option.

But they could do P2P with the server able to take big chunk of players, and make more profit.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I realy do not like the player base from the F2F that ive tried.
So if it is F2F i dought i will be taking part in live, P2P players have more comitment to the game and more to lose ,
If we do take part as a corp we would not take anyone who is F2P in with us.
So we will see what happens when the official line comes out , I have seen many beta discusions on this same topic.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Quite simply I will never seriously play any micro payment / F2P game.  Micro payments end up with a game where the cost of doing any thing is (even if hardly noticable) is never coverd by what you get out of it  ie ammo costs are greater than the loot returns etc. That or it rewards people with a large disposable income over those who do not, I play games so that my actions in game count to my success not the fact that i have no RL commitments or rich parents to make me better than every one else.

Now a mix of p2p and micro transactions for no game altering cosmetic stuff (custom paint jobs or external access time to ingame chat) would not upset the balance. though tempting to add somthing special that every one will buy just to have a slitghtly better turnover will be enormous.  At the end of the day the playing field need to be completly level.

Perhaps a reduced rate account with limited hours (weekends etc.) ohh the ability for the account owner to set the times that the limited times are usable in, with a seperate password to change them.  How many parents would say yes to thier kids if they were able to pay £7 a month and get 20 play time that they could say between sat 14:00 and 20:00 and sun 12:00 and 17:00 for the time to be used in or what ever time periods suited them. Access to chat logs from the account page for the parents to review?

Not that I want hordes kids running around every where mind you.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

There's a very good solution that only a few game companies have gone with: Maintain a sub based model, but offer time cards that can be redeemed in game and traded. This has the benefit of F2P models (ie allowing a few more people to play than normal) without the hassle of item shops or open ended free game time. It also provides a secure method for those that think they need to use money to buy in-game currency without going to 3rd party websites. I can think of at least 3 games that use this method.

The only question then will be: will the game be free to download, or will there be a registration fee for an account key?

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Micro transactions are a joke.
Not only do they tarnish the reputation of the game, it disrupts a level playing field.

Free to play is all well and fine if there's minimal to no operating costs, but if it's a quality production then there's no chance of free to play being a viable proposition.

Pay to play is the way all major MMO's go, and provides a level playing field while giving developers and the company enough money to maintain and expand their operation.
If they choose to use micro payments to get new skins and things that are completely unrelated to gameplay and only add aesthetic value to the game might be OK, but I guess it's up to the people who make those decisions to research their impact.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Let me try a different perspective.

I agree that P2P provides the best quality games compared to any other methods, hands down. What I am getting at is why not ADD F2P AND Micropay on top of P2P.

Example:
P2P Only : Has 300,000 users with steady cash flow to the company.

P2P+F2P: Well no point there really! Just stick to P2P

F2P+Micropay (item): Wrecks the game, no doubt.

P2P+F2P+Micropay: Here, you might have 200,000 users with steady cash flow to the company, HOWEVER, you may have another 200,000 users usins F2P among them about 100,000 who pay Micropay (items), while most of 200,000 P2P users also go for Micropay (items)... the numbers can easily outgrow the 300,000 P2P only.

Keep in mind, that many cannot afford a steady monthly fee, but able to perhaps afford $5 or $10 now and then when P2P is $15/mo (just a sample rate).

As I stated above, the items can have no bonus over others who don't or very minimal, and NONE of the item can be traded, period. The flaw in all F2P+Micropay system is almost all items are tradable (which destroys market) and also delevels the playing field by giving major advantage toward those who spend money vs those who don't.

So, if we add an Item that boosts bot speed by 20% = deleveling the playing field. And if the item is trade-able, well there goes the market. HOWEVER.. Bot Color Dye or Paint, will have NO effect on playing field, will give NO bonus to users, and will NOT create chaos to the market since it is not tradable or transferable. How does that delevel the playing field?
Okay, perhaps the mission reward and faction reward should be removed from the list.

The only place I can see where the playing field is not leveled is between F2P users and P2P based on EP ratio. P2P users get 1EP/min while F2P get 1EP/3min. So F2P users will have to wait 3 times longer. F2P users cannot be CEO, so less corporation clutter.


Trial version: Again, its not a big lure to begin with, sure it looks cool at first because its new, but not see the whole point of the game. Especially in the early stage, some people would just turn away because it is just "another mining simulation" or "grind fest". If you allow F2P they play much longer and start seeing whole lot more about the game past the "mining" or "grind fest" (even with missions) [true, we don't know how missions are till released in beta]. While they start seeing more and more about the game, the concept, the capabilities, etc, that is when they also start learning how important EP is and what major difference it is between subcribers and none-subscribers. Blam, you just got another sucker willing to subscribe.

I had many cases where trials and demos turned me away just to find out much later how great the game really is/was from friends and co-workers. Oh well too late, another game came along.

But then again, that is how I feel and how I experienced. Everyone is different (shrug). Yup I played over 30 MMO and god knows how many non-MMO games.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I am not sure about that f2p vs trial part. If you are allowed only 10 days, you feel that there is a lot more stuff that you could do. It is usually a much bigger hook to me that "f2p as long as you want", because i will get bored with it after a while, and the product loses that "new MMO smell" that initially makes me pay for it.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Limit Trials or unlimited f2p to starter islands perhaps?  p2p is my method of choice.  Microtransactions make more sense to me in a f2p world.  It would be a huge turn off to me if Microstransactions creeped into my p2p world.  The Microtransaction services (paint jobs etc.) should be available to p2p customers for reasonable NIC prices.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Anarchy Online went F2P a few years back. I spent 2-3 weeks in the free world before I bought a full account with all upgrades. In total I have paid (for more than a year) at least 6 accounts at AO. F2P is a great way of increasing the player base of an already working game.

But to allow a little change in the look of things, paintjobs or corp logos fits micropay perfectly. Maybe another starting bot?

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Sinna Mark wrote:

Anarchy Online went F2P a few years back. I spent 2-3 weeks in the free world before I bought a full account with all upgrades. In total I have paid (for more than a year) at least 6 accounts at AO. F2P is a great way of increasing the player base of an already working game.

But to allow a little change in the look of things, paintjobs or corp logos fits micropay perfectly. Maybe another starting bot?

Anarchy Online also has been around for 8 years now. It had a 4 year run of being P2P before going F2P.

Starting off as F2P and/or Micropay is pretty much quality suicide.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Dungeons & Dragons Online started out as a subscription based AAA MMO game. It's gone to a combination P2P/micro model where if you REALLY want to grind for it, you can buy all the premium content by grinding for the factions to earn the points.

Maple Story started off on a micro based model and is one of the more popular MMOs outside of the sub based games. It's a decent game, but, in my opinion, not worth the money it takes to really "Keep up with the Jones'."

Even some of the AAA games like EQ, WoW, and others have micropay systems in place for premium services. Until recently, these were things that didn't really effect game appearance, but just recently Blizzard added a special pet you could buy. (If I recall sales were to support one of the charities.)

For some reason, micropay systems haven't caught on with the EU and NA crowd, but they're huge in eastern Asia (China, Korea, Japan, etc.) Some of the web-based micropay games I've played are decent quality blowing the 'micropay games are all crap' theory out of the water, and in some cases better than a few of the sub based games. (The truth is that the majority of sub based games lack a lot of polish,too. They just end up closing out in a couple years because nobody wants to cough up the fees every month, but people will mess with a poor F2P/micro game for free hoping the developers get a clue.)

Last edited by Fumen (2009-12-17 23:58:23)

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Many rus players will be played  P2P only. Its filter for make good game.

19

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Here's my opinion:

If this game doesn't become F2P i don't think it's gonna work...nop

Now i wanna hear yours...

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Do you feel that because it won't work for you or that you dislike the idea of paying for a service? I don't really see why this would have to be F2P when there are a lot of interested participants that look forward to a subscription fee. I see little way a "Store" would work in this game. While EP is not the be all and end all it's still important.

Moving to a F2P model would mean a lot of "Undesirables" would have access to the game. While this is not inherently a bad thing it would degrade the community as a whole. If you enjoy something then you should be willing to support it. While the developers enjoy their work I doubt they would want to donate their time so that people can see their work. A subscription also allows the administrators to more accurately forecast cash-flow. While you only need a single account to enjoy this game allowing players to freely create as many as they like would turn the game from team-play to multi-tasking.

A small subscription fee (In line or less than the competitors fee) varies in value depending on the audience member. While £10 a month is nothing to some people to others it's a week worth of saving. However that does bring in why someone who is barely keeping themselves alive would want to spend hours playing an "Expensive" game when there are a lot of free community projects and other support systems in place. I understand that that does not cover everyone and some countries do not support their residents as much as others and the price to live in some areas of the world is incredibly low meaning that wages follow suit in being lower than the average.

F2P promotes the wrong aspects of what this game can achieve. I see great potential here. During my University course I'll be limited to the time I can play but I'll happily keep subscribing not only to support the development but also as a right to play when and where I choose. Some companies chasing the money to keep their heads above water have moved to a free to play system due to the fact that the life cycle for the average player is around a  few months. In those few months the users will spend a large amount in item shops and stores just to progress through the game content until "End Game" where their investment becomes less (Unless the games structured to require regular items from the store to play).

Overall, I see no reason that this game couldn't function under the subscription based system as the underlying training system require some form of investment.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I thought I heard the devs already decided against an F2P/Micropayment system in the game? Personally if this is F2P I will quit. I believe a tactical pvp game like this would be wasted on freeloader/f2p/very young crowd that F2P games always attract.

The only form of F2P I would like to see in this game is identical to that of stEVE. Which would be the ability to buy game time with in-game currency.

Last edited by Ex Redux (2010-07-28 21:21:09)

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

(merged the new topic here)

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

23

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

The thing is...stEVE is a very strong competition for this game which has medium graphics for me and a copied gameplay.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I don't understand how some people can't scrape together a small fee every month but can afford to run a gaming capable computer, eat (Probably very expensively and unhealthily) and prioritise what they "Want" over what they "Need".

People that can't manage to save up, on average, $0.50 a day must really be in a bad situation. Look around for free community run night classes? Ebay all your stuff? Those are extremes and I understand some people have unique situations and I am sympathetic to those people. F2P makes me think "Casual, greedy, lazy" now that of course is not always the case but it does promote a wider (Not always better) market.

I'd prefer a smaller community that dysfunctions equally rather than no community at all.

EDIT: Merged Posts. See previous even longer post for more details. D: Sorry.

Last edited by Alexander MkII (2010-07-28 21:39:32)

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

How is WASD movement, cover mechanics, and ground combat copied gameplay?

I can see the EVE influences, but my actions are more involved than "target, orbit, shoot, get a beer" or "push buttons on a POS for 6 hours while it turns on."  A lot of this stuff is just standard sandbox mechanics, with a mech flavor.  Even Darkfall, a FPS sandbox, has concepts of high sec and 0.0, player market, and steep learning curve.  It just uses an oblivion model for skill acquisition instead of a time subbed model.

More to the point, I firmly believe that F2P and/or FF2P is a bad model for this game.  FF2P works for guild wars because guild wars is essentially diablo 2 - a centralized "chat room" with instanced games.  More importantly, I can log into GW today and all my stuff from *how ever many years that was* is still there.  The thought of all the FF2P players who quit, yet still keep earning EP and coming back 2 years later to 1.5 million EP is just not a healthy environment for the game.

The other way to do F2P is like the Planetside Reserve where the game caps you at battle rank 7 (enough to get like a vehicle, a new gun, and the reinforced exo suit with more armor).  That would be like saying "you can earn 20,160 EP, two weeks worth, and no more unless you sub."

Whats is your argument for why P2P isn't appropriate?