Topic: Remote Repair

Earlier tonight I got the chance to fit a ewar bot with both remote repair and energy transfers. I first tried the energy transfer out, and found that it worked just like it should, uses 10 acumulator to transfer 40ish accumulator to an ally. So you use up 50 and provide 40. And there is also a skill that reduces the 10 initial accumulator by 3% per level. Working perfectly, no faults. Very useful.

I then tried out remote repair, and man o man... are these things useless at the momment.

First, the base stats between a remote armor repair and small armor repairer modules.

Small Armor Repairer:

Core: 20
CPU: 35
Accumulator use: 65
Repair amount: 60
Cycle time: 15.00 sec
Slot usage: Leg Slot

Small Remote Armor Repairer:

Core: 25
CPU: 45
Accumulator use: 70
Repair amount: 45
Cycle time: 20.00 sec
Slot Usage: Torso Slot

Now I'll get onto the real issues behind it.

1. The remote armor repairer uses considerably more accumulator compared to amount repaired. This is however partly offset by a skill that reduces it by 3% per level. This isn't such a big issue, and by itself, I wouldn't even mention it as a problem.

2. The next to largest problem, is that the remote repair has ""FAR"" too long of a cycle time. 20 seconds per cycle... Now your probably thinking that's not that unreasonable compared to standard armor reps... Well guess again, the big difference is that remote armor reps don't have any skills that reduce this painfully long cycle. So it's 20sec per cycle, no matter what.

3. Now the whopper of the issue, the thing that single handedly killed remote reps. "THEY FREAKING MISS!" Yeah you heard right, they miss, and miss as often as a damn autocannon. (It's possible they are also bugged and only apply once every third cycle.) This was tested with help of Nadia Nekia in her/his baphomet.

Due to these reasons I have concluded that remote reps in their current condition are worthless, and are in serious need of being... 1. Made to no longer miss. (Unless the target is behind a rock or something.) And 2. Have a extension added that reduces remote rep cycle time by 5% per level. Also a dedicated support bot would do wonders, however it's not really something that should be done until other more pressing issues are fixed.

And to end this off on a positive note, fantastic job on the energy transfers. big_smile

Last edited by Blackomen (2009-11-15 08:00:27)

Re: Remote Repair

What? you GENERATE extra energy through transfers? So if you had multiple bots transferring to each other, they could generate infinite energy? This doesn't sound more than a little broken?

Re: Remote Repair

Fumen wrote:

What? you GENERATE extra energy through transfers? So if you had multiple bots transferring to each other, they could generate infinite energy? This doesn't sound more than a little broken?

Sounds like it's clear how to fuel the RR gangs...we're all in Guardians/Basilisks now.

Ah, wait, I re-read the post...it's 50 core used to provide 40.

Last edited by Jonas Pharamond (2009-11-15 11:22:25)

Re: Remote Repair

Jonas Pharamond wrote:
Fumen wrote:

What? you GENERATE extra energy through transfers? So if you had multiple bots transferring to each other, they could generate infinite energy? This doesn't sound more than a little broken?

Sounds like it's clear how to fuel the RR gangs...we're all in Guardians/Basilisks now.

Ah, wait, I re-read the post...it's 50 core used to provide 40.

No, you read it right the first time. I made a couple screenshots so you don't have to look it up in game (bottom of post).

In my opinion, it should only be relatively efficient with highly upgraded expansions. At level 10, it should be something like 40-44 energy cost to transfer 40. If a specialized support bot or mech is going to be designed in the future that gets and energy transfer bonus, then that should be taken into consideration, too.

[img]http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn307/MagicManICT/Perpetuum%20Online/SmallEnergyXfer.png[/img]

[img]http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn307/MagicManICT/Perpetuum%20Online/MedEnergyXfer.png[/img]

Last edited by Fumen (2009-11-15 13:59:21)

Re: Remote Repair

There is an accumulator consumption (10) but on top of that it consumes the transfered energy too. So no extra energy, it takes 50, and give 40.

The miss part is pretty interesting, I look into that.
---------->
Just checked it for around 30 cycle, but looks like it cant miss, are you sure of this?
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Alf says: in the future we will have repairer mech, which will have bonus to this smile

Re: Remote Repair

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but yes it USES: 50 power to TRANSFER 40 power. No magical power creation. The transfer is perfectly done with no issues.

Mancs: I first tested the remote rep on a corpmate in his mech, I found it worked just fine, however did notice a few times when his armor did not go up. I then tried it out later on an assault bot so I could easily see armor repairing. This is when I noticed the problem, as he/she ran around I noticed the remote rep no longer repairing armor. (For testing purposes he/she was not under attack during some of the rep cycles, so I could be sure it wasn't just me repairing at the same time he/she took damage. Now every time the animation showed the effect of it hitting the target, however only about half of the cycles actually repaired damage. (Keep in mind I'm using 3 remote reps on a 1,000 +/- armor bot. So thats over 1/10 repaired, and still I noticed no gain on the active target lifebar several times.

I'm not 100% sure it is "missing" the target, but it is definitely not always "applying" the repairs.

Re: Remote Repair

The description isn't entirely clear on this. Thanks for clearing it up.

I'm going to go out on the limb and make this assumption: The expansion 'Efficient energy transfer' (reduces accum. cost of energy transfers by 5%/level) only applies to the 'Accumulator consumption' statistic. confirm?

Re: Remote Repair

Fumen wrote:

The description isn't entirely clear on this. Thanks for clearing it up.

I'm going to go out on the limb and make this assumption: The expansion 'Efficient energy transfer' (reduces accum. cost of energy transfers by 5%/level) only applies to the 'Accumulator consumption' statistic. confirm?

It does yes, just the consumption.

Re: Remote Repair

After some extensive testing today I've concluded that the remote repair does indeed miss. (Not graphically however.) I fitted 5 light reps and started repping noobiebots. As I knew each cycle would be clear as daylight. (1/4 of entire armor repped per cycle.)

First thing I discovered is that the first cycle of remote reps ALWAYS misses. Anyone can test this for themselves. I at first thought it was just a bad design, and that the armor repped at the end of the cycle rather than at the beginning when the animation occurs. But after stopping it halfway through the first cycle, no armor is repped at the end either. Only 2nd cycle on works. The other cycles however still do miss, it's pretty random, sometimes 7/10 miss other times 1/10 miss. But I guarantee you, they do miss/fail to apply. There is no way to mistakenly misjudge 1/4 of the entire armor amount repairing. It's also possible slopes cause issues here.

This does need to be looked at when time allows by a Dev.

Re: Remote Repair

We will look into it!
Also as Mancs stated above, there will be a mech desingned purely for support.
The remote repairer is like that because we would like to avoid when everyone repairs everyone while firing.
We want you to have losses in battles yarr
We could make that modul to work on primary locked targets, but it would be issue then for the support mech.

Are you sure you want to destroy this item?:
Alligior (101028825 pcs)

Re: Remote Repair

GM Alf wrote:

We will look into it!
Also as Mancs stated above, there will be a mech desingned purely for support.
The remote repairer is like that because we would like to avoid when everyone repairs everyone while firing.
We want you to have losses in battles yarr
We could make that modul to work on primary locked targets, but it would be issue then for the support mech.

Understandable, everyone hated remote rep gangs in eve also. (Curses rr domi gangs) Looking forward to the dedicated support mech, It's the role I love to do in pvp.

Re: Remote Repair

Blackomen wrote:
GM Alf wrote:

We will look into it!
Also as Mancs stated above, there will be a mech desingned purely for support.
The remote repairer is like that because we would like to avoid when everyone repairs everyone while firing.
We want you to have losses in battles yarr
We could make that modul to work on primary locked targets, but it would be issue then for the support mech.

Understandable, everyone hated remote rep gangs in eve also. (Curses rr domi gangs) Looking forward to the dedicated support mech, It's the role I love to do in pvp.

Just because you were pwned by RR gangs in eve and you don't know how to counter them doesn't mean RR is bad. In fact, RR requires more efforts then usual "warp in to optimals, F1-F8" style of play, so it's adequate that you get more chance to win with more efforts put.

Re: Remote Repair

The only bad side about RR battles is that they are really long and drawn out. Can it get boring? Yes. However, I think it makes for more interesting and strategic game play than the 'who can make the other go boom the fastest.' After all, all the PvP-centric fantasy MMOs have the tanks, the 'combat medics' (those healers that are close to the front lines) and triage healers (those that stay back and throw the big heals) and range dps. It all makes for better maneuvering and counter-tactics, in my opinion.

Re: Remote Repair

To stretch a metaphor until it screams, RR gangs are Eve's "rocks". Either use the "paper" of synchronized bomber gangs to break their locks and hit them all at once, or split them into a bunch of not-very efficient scissors by using plenty of ECM or making them move quickly, then hit them with your own rocks before they can get set up again.

However, if you choose to fly a less efficient rock (non-RR traditional fleet) or scissors (solo damage dealer), you'll have problems. 

With slower locking time and no gates to hang out on, RR mech squads are even more vulnerable tactically here. A few EW bots packed into the opposing squad would ruin their day.

Last edited by Jonas Pharamond (2009-11-19 22:50:01)

Re: Remote Repair

IR Baboon wrote:

Just because you were pwned by RR gangs in eve and you don't know how to counter them doesn't mean RR is bad. In fact, RR requires more efforts then usual "warp in to optimals, F1-F8" style of play, so it's adequate that you get more chance to win with more efforts put.

That was the dumbest thing yet to be posted on these forums. I never said I hated rr gangs in eve because I lost to them. You pulled that information out your a**. I typically was "in" a rr BS gang in eve because they were so freaking good in pvp. And the majority of the time the only thing that could beat them was either vast overwhelming numbers, or another slightly more skilled/larger rr gang. And those were painfully long drawn out battles for both sides.

Re: Remote Repair

We made some testing, and there are some thing that you need to be aware of:
The repair made at the end of every cycle, maybe that is the one reason you believed they miss all they first cycle.
They have optimal range too, and for small ones it is 100m, if that target is on 101m it wont make any repair.

We change the usage of the modul atm, it will repair on the beggining of the cycle. It will be better that way, easier to use.

Are you sure you want to destroy this item?:
Alligior (101028825 pcs)

Re: Remote Repair

GM Alf wrote:

We made some testing, and there are some thing that you need to be aware of:
The repair made at the end of every cycle, maybe that is the one reason you believed they miss all they first cycle.
They have optimal range too, and for small ones it is 100m, if that target is on 101m it wont make any repair.

We change the usage of the modul atm, it will repair on the beggining of the cycle. It will be better that way, easier to use.

Actually it just flat out never worked on the first cycle, period. I turned off the modules after activation and at the end of the cycle no repairs ever were done. I tested this some 100+ times. I am absolutely certain of this. Anyone can test it for themselves and see it's broken. Anyway, it's good to see it's going to be fixed.

Edit: I have the bug on video in case you ninja fix it. lol

Last edited by Blackomen (2009-11-27 17:40:32)

Re: Remote Repair

GM Alf wrote:

We made some testing, and there are some thing that you need to be aware of:
The repair made at the end of every cycle, maybe that is the one reason you believed they miss all they first cycle.
They have optimal range too, and for small ones it is 100m, if that target is on 101m it wont make any repair.

We change the usage of the modul atm, it will repair on the beggining of the cycle. It will be better that way, easier to use.


How about just a reduced repair if outside/inside of the optimal range?

Like at 25m out its 10% reduced
50m its 25% reduced

I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. -Socrates

Re: Remote Repair

RRs are a good tool to make battles more tactical and more interesting. Let's face it, without them what's left? "CF on X, alpha, boom". That's basically what EvE was in its early stages and, frankly, while it was fun back then this is 2010 and we're expecting a wee bit more tactical combat from our combat simulators.

And yes, RR groups tend to be quite boring in EvE. On both ends. I've been on both ends of a RR battle and they suck (they suck more when you're on the receiving end, but I guess you figured that out by now). But I'm sure they could require a fair lot of skill to pull off sensibly in Perpetuum. Why? Terrain. You not only have to watch your enemies, you have to watch your RR target too to make sure he's in range and no rubble is blocking the path in the all deciding moment when your RR fires. It could lead to whole new tactical possibilities and I do not want to miss out on that one! It gives a good commander with a good team a great opportunity to shine! Don't drop it as "boring" until we've tried it for real.

But, frankly, and I have to side with Blackomen here, if they are not reliable, they are worthless. Unless they are "reliably unreliable", i.e. if you can estimate an average hit:miss ratio. That can work out. But only if they are STILL worth it if you cut their repaired amount by their hit:miss rate. If they hit only 1 out of 3 times, only a third of the armor repaired could be taken into account. Are they still worth it if they only repair a third "for real" of what they do on paper? This again could be (if it isn't?) subject to hit/miss calculation based on angular velocity and movement, which means the repairer has to match his movement to his target for more repair success...

Dunno about you, but I'd love that!