Topic: Shields

Hi,

After some experience with shields I thought I would make a post letting you know my thoughts (and nerf my setups).

Shields are WAY too powerful.

They have several problems but two small things will create an easy fix.

1) Increase cap booster charge size X 20        Pleased to say this has been done

2) Make it so that you more than two hardeners has no effect.

This would still make them useful, just not horribly overpowered compared with armor tanking.

Taken from a convo with N-A:

[1:04:56 PM] Kae: so after a long conversation with jita, I believe that shields are slightly overpowered atm in that the force cap warefare to counter them. I feel that to even the playing field and allow for more options, the shields would require a 0.5 second (or maybe less) powerup sequence before they are fully active--in order to enable players to see when the gropho cycles it's shield and sneek in a volly before it's back up.

[1:05:12 PM] Kae: Jita disagrees, I'll let you propound your own viewpoint.

[1:05:55 PM] Jita: You know atm they ARE overpowered and not because of the bug.

[1:06:09 PM] Kae: I also could see this "powerup sequence" to be parabolic in nature - no damage reduction as it starts and gradually increasing to a full damage prevention like what happends immedately when they are turned on currently

[1:06:10 PM] Jita: so i'm gonna say agree on this one and we'll see how it goes

Added to my suggestion and this was after a JOKE N-A fight so we both have some experience over it.

Last edited by Jita (2010-11-17 03:54:54)

Re: Shields

Are you saying you want the injector charges to give you 5000 instead of 250?  How the hell will that work?

And as far as the hardeners go, some stacking penalty would be helpful, as well as a universal stacking penalty to make using tons of 1 module will get less and less effective.  You can still stack them, but you will obviously weigh the benefits.

Re: Shields

I think he means their U. So you can't carry so many of them.
The multi-hardener issue is a big one though. Only 2 hardeners SHOULD effect the shield. You're able to get a Gropho to INSANE levels with 4 T4 hardeners. Injectors don't make much difference overall and I'd prefer a pass recharge over injector for a long deployment.

Shields however on the right robots are very powerful. 1 vs 1 with a mad gropho is painful.

Re: Shields

1v1 with the wrong matchup can be painful for any number of reasons.  This game isnt designed to work around 1v1 matchups, so trying to balance based on that is just completely wrong.

Still, I really havnt used shields to any extent so I'm not fully aware if they are overpowered for their purpose.

In my mind a shield should be combined with other energy modules like transferers or drainers, which they can support with the shield setup and still be more than a cameraman in a fight.

Sure, you should be able to setup a mech with shields, but it should be a defensive setup at best that either cripples your speed due to heavy equipment, or you cant do enough dps to take out too much, just hold your position and not die.

Re: Shields

They are fine offensively as well as defensively and I have used them a fair bit. Even with two hardeners with good skills on the right mech you get a good tank. Compared with an armor tank it is way more powerful

Re: Shields

I suggest using it then. The issue with most balance is that people don't use it and thus it doesn't get nerfed/buffed like it should. Beat a few people using it, make everyone else use them and then they'll get nerfed. Easy big_smile

Last edited by Alexander (2010-11-07 02:38:21)

Re: Shields

I wouldnt say shield tanks are better than armor tanks, it just depends how and when you use them.  Theres certainly times when an armor tank is better, or resistance tank is better, etc etc etc.  You just have to know when and where to use them.

Re: Shields

Hey neoxx, we need you tomorrow to be online.

do some "shiled testing"

Last edited by Arcsin (2010-11-07 05:32:22)

Re: Shields

Anyone who has faced my "armor tanked" support bot, will tell you that armor tanking can be just as powerful when done right. Also the devs have the shield hardeners bonus calculated wrong (Or displayed incorrectly.) The math doesn't add up to the invulnerability you think it does.

I'm not saying shields arn't crazy powerful, they are, and require some serious dps to crack, (Or a dedicated neut bot.) But at the same time, you have a shielded bot with VERY limited options for offense/support.

In my personal opinion, the pros are even to the cons. Yes a shield bot is absolutely invincible 1v1 when setup right. (Even a shotgun mesmer with medium neut couldn't crack my gropho.) But at the same time... how am I dangerous to that mesmer? Keep in mind you need almost all head slots as hardeners for that tank.

Re: Shields

Blackomen wrote:

Anyone who has faced my "armor tanked" support bot, will tell you that armor tanking can be just as powerful when done right. Also the devs have the shield hardeners bonus calculated wrong (Or displayed incorrectly.) The math doesn't add up to the invulnerability you think it does.

I'm not saying shields arn't crazy powerful, they are, and require some serious dps to crack, (Or a dedicated neut bot.) But at the same time, you have a shielded bot with VERY limited options for offense/support.

In my personal opinion, the pros are even to the cons. Yes a shield bot is absolutely invincible 1v1 when setup right. (Even a shotgun mesmer with medium neut couldn't crack my gropho.) But at the same time... how am I dangerous to that mesmer? Keep in mind you need almost all head slots as hardeners for that tank.

Quoting this for lulz.

Also stop stalking me on other forums you crazy man big_smile

Re: Shields

Jita wrote:

Also stop stalking me on other forums you crazy man big_smile

Stalking? No no, I prefer the term "intelligence collecting recon". wink

Edit: Wrong alt, but hey, so was yours. wink

Last edited by Dreadnought (2010-11-08 14:58:50)

Re: Shields

Dreadnought wrote:
Jita wrote:

Also stop stalking me on other forums you crazy man big_smile

Stalking? No no, I prefer the term "intelligence collecting recon". wink

Edit: Wrong alt, but hey, so was yours. wink

I'm sure the recon proved I had little intelligence.

Also updated original post with extra content.

Re: Shields

Want the complete balance sheet between the tank of robots? Ask to make so - Lock target > has pressed a spase> target die. Who the first has pressed, that has won.

Re: Shields

Shields simply need their cycle time increasing substantially. Something around 30 seconds I'd say. This would stop the faggotry of shields off, shoot, shield on, shield off, shoot, repeat 20x. ersonally I don't think shields were intended to be used like this. There are ways to counter this tactic and if nothing changes we'll be using them but on the whole it's pretty bad in terms of the game play experience. P

Re: Shields

Or give the shields a cooldown period from the last time they were active.  If you deactivate your shield you have to wait either another cycle or some other time frame before activating it again.  This way when a shield user brings down their shield to do damage, you know you have a certain amount of time to hit them and maybe enough time to kill if you focus properly.

Re: Shields

Neoxx wrote:

Or give the shields a cooldown period from the last time they were active.  If you deactivate your shield you have to wait either another cycle or some other time frame before activating it again.  This way when a shield user brings down their shield to do damage, you know you have a certain amount of time to hit them and maybe enough time to kill if you focus properly.

This would work too. 30 seconds cool down after you last shield activation sounds good.

Re: Shields

Styx wrote:
Neoxx wrote:

Or give the shields a cooldown period from the last time they were active.  If you deactivate your shield you have to wait either another cycle or some other time frame before activating it again.  This way when a shield user brings down their shield to do damage, you know you have a certain amount of time to hit them and maybe enough time to kill if you focus properly.

This would work too. 30 seconds cool down after you last shield activation sounds good.

The cooldown was decreased for exactly this tactic of shields and it's a nice antidote to the prevailing "bring more damage" mentality. Gangs SHOULD have to bring a mix of ew, cap warfare and damage to be successful and it's really not that difficult. N-A have adapted well to this already.

I think it forces variety rather than just chucking heavies at a problem.

That said it was very overpowered with boosters due to spidertanking, the booster change will help but I still think some more work on hardeners is needed

Re: Shields

Jita wrote:

The cooldown was decreased for exactly this tactic of shields and it's a nice antidote to the prevailing "bring more damage" mentality. Gangs SHOULD have to bring a mix of ew, cap warfare and damage to be successful and it's really not that difficult. N-A have adapted well to this already.

I think it forces variety rather than just chucking heavies at a problem.

That said it was very overpowered with boosters due to spidertanking, the booster change will help but I still think some more work on hardeners is needed

This tactic isn't absurdly overpowered when you know how to counter it. We used this same setup on a slightly smaller scale many months ago and came up with the counters. The only thing that's changed is the scale and a few balance changes here and there which haven't effected the overall tactic.

My point still stands though, I don't believe shields were intended to be used like this. The 5 second cycle time was a terrible idea without a cool down mechanic which as a result should be added.

Re: Shields

I never got a chance to test them.

Are shield users nigh invulnerable without someone neutering them?

Re: Shields

Vorgrim Scout wrote:

I never got a chance to test them.

Are shield users nigh invulnerable without someone neutering them?

Essentially.

Re: Shields

Well, that has to change. Lowering shields should put atleast a 10 second cooldown on them.

Last edited by Vorgrim Scout (2010-11-17 01:06:48)

Re: Shields

Styx wrote:
Vorgrim Scout wrote:

I never got a chance to test them.

Are shield users nigh invulnerable without someone neutering them?

Essentially.


You say that without knowing anything about them which is just absurd. Hell you dont even know the cycle time is 2 seconds not 5. I do know about them as I have tested them a LOT as has my corp and know they are not impossible to crack at all, just difficult. Even with just damage its perfectly possible. You may as well say that about ewar by that token - to face a shield setup you need to adapt or bring a lot of dps. To face ewar you need to do adapt or bring your own counters its no different.

As for the cooldwon, a 30 second timer would essentially make shields useless if you wished to fire and reduce them to ew and support only.

I would advocate a 30 second cooldown provided you put the same 30 second cooldown on armor repairers.

Let me be really clear - shield tanking is better than armor tanking because it is more slot intensive and hurts your setup more to use. It is also a lot more skillfull to be combat effective in it. My issue with shield tanking is how MUCH better it should be, not in making it not viable for tanking at all which is crazy.

The changes made need more time but are definitely a step in the right direction.

Re: Shields

I freely admit that I never tested shields, but from what is being said here it seems they need reworking.

If the only answer to fighting Pelistal (and seth) is to bring Ictus' or Zerging them down, there is an issue.

I don't want shields to be useless, but they sound out of control in skilled hands.

Re: Shields

Jita wrote:

As for the cooldwon, a 30 second timer would essentially make shields useless if you wished to fire and reduce them to ew and support only.

I would advocate a 30 second cooldown provided you put the same 30 second cooldown on armor repairers.

They would not become useless at all, they would simply fulfil their intended roll. The 30 cool down on armour repairs is idiotic. You've just proven you don't understand the practical application of the modules discussed and proposed changes in the game environment.

Jita wrote:

Let me be really clear - shield tanking is better than armor tanking because it is more slot intensive and hurts your setup more to use. It is also a lot more skillfull to be combat effective in it. My issue with shield tanking is how MUCH better it should be, not in making it not viable for tanking at all which is crazy.

The reason shield tanking is so much more effective is because of the huge buffer tank you can get due to the robots accumulator size. Put a few hardeners on and you have increased your tank up to four times. Couple this with the fact you can cycle your shields at up to 5 second intervals (more like 3 in practice due to the on / off animation) allows you to shoot in-between with absurd effectiveness. Factor in that the opponent has no idea when you decide to bring down your shield and it is nigh impossible to kill a properly fit and piloted shielded robot that still has accumulator.

Oh and did I forget to mention that you can also add in energy transfer support bots to make this fit even more lubriciously powerful.

Shields simply aren't supposed to be used in this manner. Even regardless of their intended application they are quite simply imbalanced at the moment. There is no rock, paper, scissors. Anyone coming up against shields is forced to bring neuts if they want to win.

EDIT: Just to clarify I'm quite happy to exploit the living hell out of this until the server population is on its knees bleeding like a stuffed pig. This just isn't the sort of game play balance (or unbalance for that matter) that I'd like to have to resort to using. Rock vs Rock meets Rock.

Last edited by Styx (2010-11-17 04:32:22)

Re: Shields

Styx it has a two second cycle, not five and not three and ofc you can use transfers, what you think held us up vs you? It's just the same as rr, you telling me you can't fit buffer in armour?

The difference between shields and armour is with shields you nerf any chance at range or resistance to ew. It's the perfect rock paper scissors when we didn't have that before.

Rock - pure damage
Paper - shield tanks
Scissors - EW