Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Blackomen wrote:

I at least like to think I stand in the middle here as both a pirate/ganker and a miner/industrialist. Anyway, that's my 2 NIC.

You're not. You're a PvPer. Not every player is/will be PvPer whether you like it or not.

Seeding risky parts of the game with rare stuff will give the elite players a shortcut to wealth and domination as well be a huge magnet for the goldseller to exploit.


As to the recycling part. The economy isn't stable atm so its impossible to make any substantial claim about it. I still needs to pan out.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Have you ever tried to run a mining operation on a beta island?  It seems not.

I've done it with a few players and VERY LITTLE PROTECTION in case someone happened along and it was perfectly fine.  We were even pretty new to the game still, but we wanted that epriton.  We found somewhere that was not traveled by analyzing the map and likely travel paths and set up camp.  Could have mined for hours in that spot and never be seen except in hauling runs.



It just seems to me that you want mining to be completely risk free, and that you should be able to get to the top of the mining game yet still be able to go no further than 2km outside of your comfort zone to do everything this game has to offer in your field.

We just need more rare materials, and more materials moved specifically out to beta, if not lowering alpha yields like I suggested.  If you are so unhappy about this suggestion, why arent you all complaining that epriton is on beta only?  Oh, because its still in police zones... well, lets wait until thats fixed.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Faxeir wrote:

Seeding risky parts of the game with rare stuff will give the elite players a shortcut to wealth and domination as well be a huge magnet for the goldseller to exploit.

Yes. Not all players can 'win'. Good players having an advantage is whatfore games are for. This is not a game about 'bad bladery are equally good to good players'. There will be those who 'win' and be efficient and those who 'loose' and aren´t efficnet/smart.

You try to suggest a game which makes no diffrence between 'good' and 'bad'. Games are not mean to be this. They are 99% competetive. Everyone in its own way.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Neoxx wrote:

It just seems to me that you want mining to be completely risk free, and that you should be able to get to the top of the mining game yet still be able to go no further than 2km outside of your comfort zone to do everything this game has to offer in your field.

What is wrong with wanting to mine risk free? (I'm not liking it either but I'm advocating in favor for it.) It simply means saying to those people 'don't bother logging buddy, we don't want your money'.

If you're mining for a mega corp doesn't make it sense that the miner doesn't run any risk because the area is guarded by security forces? It's quite normal to drill for oil with a civil war going right?

We just need more rare materials, and more materials moved specifically out to beta, if not lowering alpha yields like I suggested.  If you are so unhappy about this suggestion, why arent you all complaining that epriton is on beta only?  Oh, because its still in police zones... well, lets wait until thats fixed.

Balancing it that way you suggested is shortsighted and doesn't work for the long term.

Eg. mining of rare minerals would be skewed if a PvPer only have his miner alt mine a few hours to pay for PvPing for over a whole week.

You can change this.

Take eg. gold mining. There are only a few places on this planet that have concentrated quantities of gold. But they also ways of mining gold by moving giant amounts of soil with tiny gold fragments and filter them out in plants.

You can introduce this concept in the game as well. Enable to seed various ways of minerals and introduce extra producing stages in lower yield areas. This way its easier to balance supply demand and give miners the chance to choose instead of being forced into PvP.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

LatscherX wrote:

Yes. Not all players can 'win'. Good players having an advantage is whatfore games are for. This is not a game about 'bad bladery are equally good to good players'. There will be those who 'win' and be efficient and those who 'loose' and aren´t efficnet/smart.

You try to suggest a game which makes no diffrence between 'good' and 'bad'. Games are not mean to be this. They are 99% competetive. Everyone in its own way.

According to Pareto Principle, only 20% of the players will be the winners, you need a content for those 80%. At the end, they are no less subscribers as the winners are.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Maynard Benaui wrote:

According to Pareto Principle, only 20% of the players will be the winners, you need a content for those 80%. At the end, they are no less subscribers as the winners are.

/this

Giving the game more depth and more options to reach your personal goals will give those 80% more reason to log on. Otherwise they are nothing more than serfs of the people that were the first ones that managed to get to the 'pots of gold'.

I'd like to bet that some people in here already are planning to take a vacation when this game goes gold so they will be the first ones to driving mechs.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

You seem to understand exactly what I'm saying, but still avoiding it.

You will STILL BE ABLE TO mine in alpha if you want to.  You can do your afk *** and be happy with that all you want.

What this is suggesting is that theres more profit for the active miner and the one who really wants to make something of himself in this game.  You seem to want it so that even the most lazy, semi-afk miner in the game can become the most successful miner in perpetuum.

Seems like you would excel at this game.... or maybe not.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Neoxx wrote:

You seem to want it so that even the most lazy, semi-afk miner in the game can become the most successful miner in perpetuum.

What is your definition of most successful miner?
(hint: anything you say is wrong in the eyes of somebody else)


If you don't want people to do semi-afk mining you should come up with something to counter it. Not by suggesting to change the game mechanics in a way that hardly affects this.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

It does affect it because they have to be vigilant of people coming around and if they are afk at the wrong time they will die.

Successful being profitable and productive.

Right now, you can just afk until you fill up, place in can, rinse repeat.  You use EP to get faster and whatnot at mining, and you sit on the same spot as you can mine the same thing at the highest rate at the same place as you started mining.

Thats game progression thats meant for people in a coma, IMO.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Neoxx wrote:

It does affect it because they have to be vigilant of people coming around and if they are afk at the wrong time they will die.

Successful being profitable and productive.

Right now, you can just afk until you fill up, place in can, rinse repeat.  You use EP to get faster and whatnot at mining, and you sit on the same spot as you can mine the same thing at the highest rate at the same place as you started mining.

Thats game progression thats meant for people in a coma, IMO.


Neoxx you miss the whole point so let me write it again for the 16 millionth time

What you are advocating is a fun hierarchy where only people who want to pvp can have their maximum amount of fun

If people just want to mine and not fight because for them it is fun mining then you are saying NO you can not have your amount of maximum fun you MUST pvp or pay "protection fee"

And risk vs reward all you want is to gank defenseless miners that is the only reason why you want high end minerals in low sec areas so that you can have fun and they can't or so that you can like the mafia offer “protection” that they must pay you

You risk nothing and they risk everything, how about every time you log in a timer starts and more and more npcs attack you non stop would you like that, or how about every time you log in you directly get ganked your reward will be able to play your risk is to handle all npcs attacking you at the same time

There are people who want to do missions and mine and what ever these people also have real money who can pay to play, but again you are saying no your money is not good enough only people who want to pvp are deserving everyone else is garbage

Let people who want to mine do so without having to fight and let them mine the best minerals in totally safe areas

Let people who want to fight fight

But do not force people who do not want to fight into fighting areas just so that YOU can be happy at their misery

And what risk vs reward when they are risking everything so that YOU can have fun ganking them

It is all about fun and who finds what fun
You find it fun ganking defenseless people

But other people you see don't want to be ganked, and you are saying well even though you pay money to play a game you can not have your fun because my fun is the only fun that matters

Let people play and stop meddling with them

Last edited by Max Tesla (2010-08-07 18:20:16)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

@Max Tesla


No. PvP is in this game an integral structure. You can mine as much as you want. But mining includes also being protected by your corp mates. Don´t blame others when you can´t protect your own mining-operation. You want to play on your own? Well, this is a MMO where people play diffrent roles to achieve goals.

Mining is easy (drag&drop, AFK), so it should NOT yield as much profit as something you had to fight for.

The simple point here is that you get more when you do more. And just mining being a very very simple task (time consumption is not an argument, pvp consumes time, too) is not something to be rewarded that high. So how do you balance things which are easy but still have much profit? RISK. And your risk is not to die while being protected.

If you want to avoid Risk while wanting maximum efficiency in a open sandbox game then its probably not the game of your choice.

If you want a maximum risk free task in terms of not losing your robot, then start trading only. Buy and sell goods while sitting in the station. /thread.

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-08-07 18:59:46)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

LatscherX wrote:


The simple point here is that you get more when you do more.

The problem is, you think that being involved in combat or being expose to is equal to do more for everyone, it isn't.

The purpose of industrial people is to make money, not to be involved in combat.

Industrial people will always be 'rewarded' more depending on how well they can exploit market opportunities hence you do not need to be worried about their profits.

What you do not seem to understand is that industrial community works on completely different principles including motivation/reward scheme.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Maynard Benaui wrote:

The problem is, you think that being involved in combat or being expose to is equal to do more for everyone, it isn't.

The purpose of industrial people is to make money, not to be involved in combat.

Industrial people will always be 'rewarded' more depending on how well they can exploit market opportunities hence you do not need to be worried about their profits.

What you do not seem to understand is that industrial community works on completely different principles including motivation/reward scheme.

I don´t want to derail this thread into history and principles of ressources and power. But:

noone forces you into pvp. NOONE. You don´t have to leave alpha islands at all. The point is just that you won´t be able to gather specific ressources there or have disadvantages. And the industry is never independent from other parts of the game like its in RL, too.

This topic derails into basic attitudes and opinions. At this point noone accepts the argument from others. We can close this thread.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

LatscherX wrote:

No. PvP is in this game an integral structure.

Why does it have zones without PvP then?
So strike one.

You can mine as much as you want. But mining includes also being protected by your corp mates. Don´t blame others when you can´t protect your own mining-operation.

There are parts you don't have to be protected.
Strike two.

You want to play on your own? Well, this is a MMO where people play diffrent roles to achieve goals.

People want to achieve their own goals and not your goals.
Strike three. You're out.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Faxeir wrote:

Why does it have zones without PvP then? So strike one.

There are parts you don't have to be protected. Strike two.

People want to achieve their own goals and not your goals.
Strike three. You're out.

Retaliation to strike 1:

Because m2s or similar corporations were successfull to wipe everything on Alpha. You may not know that Alpha islands were not a complete safe zone before, there were police towers, too. And because of people complaining, that they were killed pretty often, complete safe zone was introduced.

Retaliation to strike 2: You are correct, but in these parts you won´t make any big profit or progress (speaking of alpha islands) - don´t forget, the state of the game is not complete. Later on you will understand this :-)

Retaliation to strike 3: The people's goals are determined by game mechanics. Speaking of they are competetive and towards PvP.


Retaliation successfull. Your missiles got stuck in their launchers. cool

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

LatscherX wrote:

@Max Tesla


No. PvP is in this game an integral structure. You can mine as much as you want. But mining includes also being protected by your corp mates. Don´t blame others when you can´t protect your own mining-operation. You want to play on your own? Well, this is a MMO where people play diffrent roles to achieve goals.

Mining is easy (drag&drop, AFK), so it should NOT yield as much profit as something you had to fight for.

The simple point here is that you get more when you do more. And just mining being a very very simple task (time consumption is not an argument, pvp consumes time, too) is not something to be rewarded that high. So how do you balance things which are easy but still have much profit? RISK. And your risk is not to die while being protected.

If you want to avoid Risk while wanting maximum efficiency in a open sandbox game then its probably not the game of your choice.

If you want a maximum risk free task in terms of not losing your robot, then start trading only. Buy and sell goods while sitting in the station. /thread.


Your kinda arguing against your self

First you say you don't need to leave the safe areas then you say you must do so to get better resources

If someone finds it fun to mine why should that person be pushed into fighting or paying a protection fee so that he can achieve his maximum amount of fun basically penalizing him

But a person who finds it fun to pvp gets no penalty but rewarded with easy targets and can achive his maximum amount of fun without any penalty

What about the opposite

To pvp you must pay a "pvp fee", why should pvpers not constantly pay half of what they have to someone else so that they can pvp why should they have fun for free, what is the fun in that?

And I find it amusing that you say risk, the pvpers ganking the defenses miner risks nothing to have his fun, but the miner risks everything to have his fun, and if the miner wants to have his fun without risk well then he must pay a protection fee


So people who have real money should pay to play a game where they can not have their fun without doing something they don't want

Have you ever asked yourself why pure pvp games have never succeeded and the less people have to pvp in a game the more people play that game

Understand this there are people out there in the world who do not want to exist only for you to have fun, and they do not want to ask you for permission to have fun

When you create locations with low security and greater resources you are creating a fun hierarchy when pvp fun is at the top and everything else is at the bottom

If you want to mine well to bad for you you can only mine by paying the local mafia a protection fee, oooooo also send us money every month to play this game even though you can not have your fun

Let people who want to mine, mine do not say their fun is less worth than people who want to pvp

How would you like it if there was a fee for you to pay to pvp  you must pay 10-15% of your money to all the miners and also for this joy you must pay the game makers 10 dollars per month, how long would you play such a game, but yopu ask the same for people who do not want to pvp

Let people who want to mine, mine, and let people who want to do missions do that and let people who want to pvp do that as well, do not say that everything must be pvp oriented for maximum amount of reward

Lots of people don't want to pvp but want to have fun and they also have real money which to buy a game and play

Last edited by Max Tesla (2010-08-07 19:44:39)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

i dont understand it - as later, with a probably higher playercount, the alpha-islands mining-spots willl be empty pretty fast, and the more islands they introduce, those small three islands will be far away from the profitable selling-spots.

those who produce somewhere, have to sell the stuff to make money out of it. NPC buy orders for everything wont stay ingame forever.

“The truth is balance. However the opposite of truth, which is unbalance, may not be a lie.”
(Susan Sontag)
Forum Moderator

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

LatscherX wrote:

noone forces you into pvp. NOONE. You don´t have to leave alpha islands at all. The point is just that you won´t be able to gather specific ressources there or have disadvantages.

You do force people into PVP due placing part of their content into exclusive PVP areas.
You do impose your way of playing the game upon them.

The 'risk' of losing an industrial robot is meaningless. The robot is not intended to be exposed to combat challenges unlike combat robot.


Non from the opponent side here is telling you to be involved in mining in order to achieve any part of the combat oriented content. That would be dumb. Yet you keep insisting on mechanics working on same principle...Why?

What makes you think your play style is more 'sensible' or even worthy than anyone's else and should be submitted to same principles and be more suitable for further game development?

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

LatscherX wrote:

Retaliation successfull. Your missiles got stuck in their launchers.

You try to refute my arguments with circular reasoning? As you can see it isn't helping you much is it?

If you want to have a PvP only game why even bother having merchants, industrials, miners etc?

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Neoxx wrote:

Right now, you can just afk until you fill up, place in can, rinse repeat.

Max Tesla wrote:

What you are advocating is a fun hierarchy where only people who want to pvp can have their maximum amount of fun

So you're saying "Noone can possibly have any fun doing this", and "You should not be able to make that much money completely risk free", because "This is a PvP game" and "If you want to be as rich as us, you must do PvP", still "People complained they were being killed all the time on alpha islands before it was made a non-PvP zone". I probably would have stopped playing.

LatscherX wrote:

But mining includes also being protected by your corp mates.

And on the contrary, I, in fact, do have fun playing the game doing mining for hours. Scan, lock, mine, drag, drop, drag, drop, next tile, repeat, glare in happiness at the big hole in the deposit. So I hope this is not going to be another Steve where you can mine 5 hours with 3 accounts and all you get is a drop in the bucket, one of the reasons I go out so rarely doing some PvP for a change, while running missions is so much more profitable but it's not "my fun".

Also I have yet to meet a combat oriented player that has the same fun "protecting" me for hours. This only works for scheduled operations and generally don't last very long so I'm more than glad and sincerely hope AC keeps strict PvE areas in their game.

Last edited by Ulviirala (2010-08-07 22:11:11)

I don't just embrace insanity. I feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Hmmmm.... It is hard to read both sides of this argument. I see what both sides are saying though. There is a lot of mudslinging though, and arguing what a term is or definition of a word.

I propose a solution:
Miners, you don't get to talk about PvP. When you try it out, you do.
PvP'ers, you don't get to tell the miners how much NIC they can make on alpha. Unless you go and deplete their fields for them.

Maybe the devs could use their next experiment time to deplete mineral fields on alpha and see what happens.

I am not a peacemaker, I am a chaos theorist.

--
I love protecting miners. I've never had pvp while mining on beta outside of police towers. a single scout protects a 5 man group everytime. I don't have anything against the alpha miners though, there aren't enough of them. I do worry in the back of my head of the chinese hoards of farmers and what it would do to the economy. If they don't travel to beta, then I would nerf alpha without hesitation.

lastly, gm was 100% spot on. These islands are not the game model. Looking forward to actual island/market/pvp zone distribution.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Good Thread,  big Nod to this discussion, and the original idea.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

My eyes! My eyes!

I feel like I'm watching a slap fight with people going "no you!"

The real profits from mining don't come from minerals, its from producing.  Its the lowest in the food chain as far as production goes - mining, refining, producing.  Regardless of what the devs do or don't do, mining will be one of the weakest professions simply because market forces will dictate that (no one will sell a bot for less than the minerals and the CT costs, unless they fail at math).

The sooner everyone realizes that, the better.  All the devs can do is adjust mineral faucet and sink rates to aim for a price they feel is reasonable.  Scarcity drives competition - and even if you don't engage in "PvP" - you still are.

*The miner in the alpha island is PvP'ing the other miner on the alpha island by depleting the node
*The producer is PvP'ing other producers on the market by competing on price for buy and sell orders
*The trader is PvP'ing everybody else by locating trade routes, and in many cases socially engineering their own bubbles and crashes
*NPC farmers are competng with each other for who can use the spawn - a castel shooting a spawn simply can't keep up with a tyrannos shooting the same spawn.

Its all semantics, sandboxes are all about competition.  Encouraging competition - both combat and non-combat - should be of the highest priority in a sandbox.

As to the secondary topic at hand, you *need* hard assets to fight over.  If every country in the Real World had access to local oil, coal, food, water, etc etc geopolitics would be substantially less ***.  In the context of a game world, if you give everybody everything it sterilizes the game.

*Without something meaningful to fight over, pvp'ers get bored
*Without pvp'ers fighting each other, producers can't sell anything as item death is ultimately required
*Without producers selling things, no one will be buying the minerals that miners mine

So seriously - the incessant fighting completely misses the point and is drowning out useful discussion on the subject.

/waits for someone to miss the point

Last edited by Darin Raltin (2010-08-09 17:37:45)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

+5 respect points. spot on.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Darin Raltin wrote:

Its all semantics, sandboxes are all about competition.  Encouraging competition - both combat and non-combat - should be of the highest priority in a sandbox.

Talking about semantics, nice paradox there buddy.

Anybody can determine his/her own priorities in this game.