Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Porzeczka wrote:

Actual situation shows that market is ineffective.

Market is functional currently as has always been and removing NPC bot orders did not change anything about it.

The prices skyrocketed because they simply can. There is nothing 'real' about it.


Having no volumes on market is partially because of low population and simplicity of the production process. Also do not forget alts and tons of already acquired wealth and assets.


What might need looking at is NIC generation, sinks and faucets. As it is now, Assignments are supposed to be major NIC influx but they work a bit...odd...for that purpose.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

Just quick remarks:

1) Your production extensions are low. You cannot balance the game about anything than 100% efficiency.

2) You count the price for CT from NPC price which is incorrect.

3) No Finance extensions? Seriously..

1) The market is going to approach the average skill level of the producing body - so looking exclusively at maxed out producers is inaccurate.  Sure, my skills aren't pro but the market is going to calibrate at a level where a certain portion of the "average" builders can get a share.  My intution tells me that I'm within 20-25% the actual mineral build cost of a 10/10/10, unless these skills really drive it down to the component level

By your logic, T2 BPO holders in EVE would dictate price because they are at 100% potential but everyone knows that simply isn't true.

2) The CT price is the opportunity cost of selling the item and decoder on the market.  I used the old NPC price to serve as a demonstration - its obviously higher now.

3) I have level 4 in the sales tax skill.  Taxes are *still* high in general in this game.

You are exactly right that a highly skilled player can squeeze a lot more out, but unless the 10/10/10 players perfectly meet demand the price will adjust upwards to allow weaker producers in.  That is part of what you are seeing - because the best producers are going to move onto larger items as well (I bet most 10/10/10 are making mechs/heavies)

I'll repeat, I'm deeply concerned about the actual value of light mining and combat bots.  The 10/10/10 producers aren't going to waste their time building them so they truly don't matter here - it's a newb market that will calibrate to low skilled producers.  As a low skilled producer I'm telling you that I wouldn't sell an argano for below 500-600k, slugs/cells below 90, mining charges below 40, etc.

If the price of light bots booms without the seed, its going to greatly increase the time a brand new player is stuck inside an Arkhe.  Thats why this discussion is so important.

*EDIT* Not that it matters, but here are some E-credentials.  I owned 50% of the rig market in the placid region for all the popular large rigs in EVE, made 4 billion trading in 2 months (starting from 150k), and built everything in the game except T3.  It's been awhile since I've been 'low skill' and its giving me a new perspective on balance as I'm trying to penetrate markets and seeing what I'd be comfortable with.

Last edited by Darin Raltin (2010-08-10 20:40:34)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Darin Raltin wrote:

1) The market is going to approach the average skill level of the producing body - so looking exclusively at maxed out producers is inaccurate.  Sure, my skills aren't pro but the market is going to calibrate at a level where a certain portion of the "average" builders can get a share.  My intution tells me that I'm within 20-25% the actual mineral build cost of a 10/10/10, unless these skills really drive it down to the component level

By your logic, T2 BPO holders in EVE would dictate price because they are at 100% potential but everyone knows that simply isn't true.

2) The CT price is the opportunity cost of selling the item and decoder on the market.  I used the old NPC price to serve as a demonstration - its obviously higher now.

3) I have level 4 in the sales tax skill.  Taxes are *still* high in general in this game.

You are exactly right that a highly skilled player can squeeze a lot more out, but unless the 10/10/10 players perfectly meet demand the price will adjust upwards to allow weaker producers in.  That is part of what you are seeing - because the best producers are going to move onto larger items as well (I bet most 10/10/10 are making mechs/heavies)

I'll repeat, I'm deeply concerned about the actual value of light mining and combat bots.  The 10/10/10 producers aren't going to waste their time building them so they truly don't matter here - it's a newb market that will calibrate to low skilled producers.  As a low skilled producer I'm telling you that I wouldn't sell an argano for below 500-600k, slugs/cells below 90, mining charges below 40, etc.

If the price of light bots booms without the seed, its going to greatly increase the time a brand new player is stuck inside an Arkhe.  Thats why this discussion is so important.

*EDIT* Not that it matters, but here are some E-credentials.  I owned 50% of the rig market in the placid region for all the popular large rigs in EVE, made 4 billion trading in 2 months (starting from 150k), and built everything in the game except T3.  It's been awhile since I've been 'low skill' and its giving me a new perspective on balance as I'm trying to penetrate markets and seeing what I'd be comfortable with.

Good points.

Here is my stance:

1) It will be the players with high extensions who will be undercutting. Will that affect the average price? I suppose so, it does not take that long to skill them up in players life span.

Overall, you will be looking at a trend that is pushing the prices down, unless some very tricky mechanics is implemented, thus there will be a pressure on extensions as well.


BPO is not the case because there are a few people owning them only.

2) I was taking into account there are NPC sell orders for that particular item seeded(not really the case here, just for general calculation), in that case, NPC price is the highest possible.

Considering you are building your own items you make CT off....

3) iirc, with L10 extension, the tax is 1%, not sure for fees.


Can you explain please following?
'The 10/10/10 producers aren't going to waste their time building them'

I am not seeing why.




Well, the game cannot start without NPC sell orders so I wouldn't be troubled much smile

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Why would a 10/10/10 (meaning B/I/E waste skills) waste a factory slot building light bots when he could be building prototypes, mechs, and other capital intensive items to get the most bang for the buck?

The light market is historically a newb market.  Players who lack capital and extensions but want to break into it and use it to transition to a large market.  This isn't eve where the best producers will sell cruisers alongside HAC's because they have to burn a slot for it.

EDIT - you are exactly right about NPC seeds at launch, but the NPC sell price shouldn't crowd out producers (much like the buy price on minerals doesn't crowd them out).  There seems to be a theme amongst some of the devs (and pardon the summary) of "tsk tsk, 3.5 million assaults are a rip off" and if that is their reaction to the manipulation and price games of the market, it makes me nervous to see their response when they drop the light bot seed and it shoots to 700k.  The first newb that whines and ragequits that he had to spend 6 hours grinding in his Arkhe will be the tip of the iceberg.

They are blaming manipulators and are missing the point that the seed price is simply too low to be realistic in many demonstrable instances.  The question should be "if we feel the price is too high, what can we do at the supply side (minerals) to adjust that" instead of "a small market = jacked up prices = nothing of value can come from this except a black market."  Failing to understand that price inflation is a deliberate attack on player's wallets and acting like its "misguided" is the wrong attitude.

And I'm sorry if I offend anyone with this ... I'm passionate about this because I've been knee deep in virtual economies and I hope that drastic things like "drone regions" and "salvage nerfs (6 years later)" don't happen as a stop gap to fix supply problems.

Last edited by Darin Raltin (2010-08-10 21:40:49)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Darin Raltin wrote:

Why would a 10/10/10 (meaning B/I/E waste skills) waste a factory slot building light bots when he could be building prototypes, mechs, and other capital intensive items to get the most bang for the buck?

The light market is historically a newb market.  Players who lack capital and extensions but want to break into it and use it to transition to a large market.  This isn't eve where the best producers will sell cruisers alongside HAC's because they have to burn a slot for it.

EDIT - you are exactly right about NPC seeds at launch, but the NPC sell price shouldn't crowd out producers (much like the buy price on minerals doesn't crowd them out).  There seems to be a theme amongst some of the devs (and pardon the summary) of "tsk tsk, 3.5 million assaults are a rip off" and if that is their reaction to the manipulation and price games of the market, it makes me nervous to see their response when they drop the light bot seed and it shoots to 700k.  The first newb that whines and ragequits that he had to spend 6 hours grinding in his Arkhe will be the tip of the iceberg.
They are blaming manipulators and are missing the point that the seed price is simply too low to be realistic in many demonstrable instances.  The question should be "if we feel the price is too high, what can we do at the supply side (minerals) to adjust that" instead of "a small market = jacked up prices = nothing of value can come from this except a black market."  Failing to understand that price inflation is a deliberate attack on player's wallets and acting like its "misguided" is the wrong attitude.
And I'm sorry if I offend anyone with this ... I'm passionate about this because I've been knee deep in virtual economies and I hope that drastic things like "drone regions" and "salvage nerfs (6 years later)" don't happen as a stop gap to fix supply problems.

As far as I know, profit is about opportunity.
Big bang does not necessary mean it beats volumes, supply/demand or production costs/price.

The extension/skill system is quite different from EVE as well is production system and everything else. Thus speaking for myself, I really don't know how this will pan out.



I really do not understand the fuss around NPC orders. What matters here is the NIC influx. You pump more NIC into economy, higher the prices will be.

What NIC influx does, is that it puts the pressure on mineral prices. Producers will be able to sell for the price depending on how much NIC is floating around.

This is not much different from NPC orders, they will make the same kind of pressure with down side trend.


Or am I missing something?




The 'experiment' is completely pointless, all you will find out is how much money people currently have...

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

I can only say i like how the markets looks like
if only we had wish to mine / build more than for current corp needs it would be good envrioment to develop
prices were artificially low at npc stores
now they are a bit too high but they should lower over time

but when somebody enters game and sees market like this I can  understand he is not happy
this game strongest feature is how you really need a corp to do various of things
i.e. equipment supply so to any not happy - around - stop playing this game solo - it is not meant to be be played solo

Devs : market move was right one IMO

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Current market is owned by a single person (he claims by himself) so it's even more impossible to make any claims about it. If you want to experiment some more on this market you should get rid of that factor and see what gives.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

That 'factor' will disappear over time.  As more industrials enter the market, his ability to 'control' it will decrease (lack of market orders, not wanting to sit on 40 baphomets, the window of opportunity to flip a sell order decreases, etc.).

Manipulators, Market Makers, etc. etc. are a big part of all virtual economies.  Once this game launches you will have hundreds of such people each focusing on their corner of the market or chasing the next opportunity.

Basically - give it time, it will fix itself as more people get into to market to sell at the high price.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

In general you're right on that. Exception is when resources are limited to a few people and they are forming up a cartel to control prices. This in itself is not a bad thing but it can turn ugly when that money gets used for RMT or forming up even more kartels smothering the whole economy.
That's why cartels aren't allowed in RL.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

RMT in a beta?  Why ........

If anything, you should be encouraging them to make a mess of things - better that it happens NOW while it can be fixed - if in fact it does need to be fixed.

M2S simply isn't going to able to own everything when it launches, it just won't happen if this game takes off at all so its all a non issue.

Sandbox MMO's are all about land ownership and 'cartels', the devs just need to create enough tasty morcels to be fought over so that any one corp or group of corps can't own it all.

Last edited by Darin Raltin (2010-08-11 18:08:15)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Darin Raltin wrote:

M2S simply isn't going to able to own everything when it launches, ...

... because we own already everything. yarr

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Darin Raltin wrote:

RMT in a beta?  Why ........

Why not? There already have been RL threats in game because of login traps.

Sandbox MMO's are all about land ownership and 'cartels', the devs just need to create enough tasty morcels to be fought over so that any one corp or group of corps can't own it all.

Bolded the important parts.