Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

I must beg the interest of everyone reading: It is closed beta. The most valuable thing you can achieve at this point is player relations, and experience.

If they have infinite bots, little to experience in making them yet.
If they sell them, then they get good publicity and improve relations.
If they practice upkeep of a supply chain to continue to sell on the market, they gain new experience.

Your points LatscherX work, if you are an isolated Monarchy.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Kwitch, this does actually mainly affect the combat character, because the crafters dont give two *** that theres no npcs, and it only opens more opportunities to profit.  The crafter doesnt have to change his ways at all to adapt to this, and im sure most wont, since they can keep on not making bots and profit the same way they always have.

This affects combat characters because it will inevitably raise the price at first, and there isnt always a steady stream of bots to find at the right terminal.  This puts the 'stress' on the combat character and not the crafter.


That being said, I'm all for the NPC orders being taken off the market.  I think the current population will be able to satisfy the market demand, even if it is a higher price. It is quite easy to get enough money for the bots, and if the prices rise it will only stress the insurance and related extensions more when they have to purchase each bot from the market.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

In terms of affecting the combat character... if he is not in a corp, then maybe. I still think it will only increase the cost, not anything else. I highly doubt no one will be selling bots to profit of the high demand low supply situation.

By affect the combat character, I thought I explained that simply spending more NIC was not much of a change. And it's welcomed by myself smile

"The crafter doesnt have to change his ways at all"
Reminds me of a saying: standing still is moving backwards.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

the crafter doesnt have to change anything.  Do you have to sell bots? no.

Does the combat character have to get a supply of bots from somewhere? yes.  for most, this was the NPC orders.  Even for those who could afford to make them, it was generally cheap enough to just buy them to not waste the materials on smaller things that can be easily bought on the market.

Theres nothing forced on the crafter, but there is something forced on the combat character.

I do realize the point you're trying to make, that if you dont take advantage of this then you're dumb.  But, theres many many many ways to make a profit as a crafter, and this is just opening new options, not forcing them to use them like the combat character is forced to find their bots from another source.

Last edited by Neoxx (2010-08-01 07:18:33)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Agree, your point is valid, but not any more so than mine. I can agree that your point is correct, without having to dismantle it to make space for mine. As you said, saying no to free money is dumb.

*assuming*
Crafters craft to make a profit, there is no higher base rate profitable commodity then the sale of bots on a large scale. The Nic per transaction is high. I prefer smaller transactions, just more of them myself. I'm definitely going to help support the community and their new bot needs for the sake of experimentation though. Or else, all of my previous threads about economy and markets are just a waste of time.

*edit*
Oh, and I agree with you, the combat character is forced to get his bot from a different source. Just, there are so many sources to get them from. It seems with so many options to me, that the difficulty here is self-motivation, not so much difficulty in actual acquisition.

Last edited by Kwitch (2010-08-01 07:39:58)

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

gfldex wrote:

Instead of a pointless rant you could have asked kindly if somebody could sport you an assault bot. At least we learned who not to recruit.

Looking further up the thread, thinking I missed your point of view...but did not find one.  Why should I need to beg for favours? Game-lore is us MegaCorps of olde Earth, come to conquer, to explore, to learn alien-tech. Why would headoffice want to cut the supply-chain then? roll It's still closed-beta and half the bots/mechs are now unavailable to test Hell, I still cant tell how many slots a bot comes with since only each types-total is shown.

Ulviirala wrote:
Death Slinger wrote:

Well, it's facted, there isn't enough.

You seem to have not dealt with the current industry side of Perpetuum yet, otherwise you would very well know that it's way too early to claim that it's facted that there are not enough people manufacturing them.

At earliest you might see orders pop up after a week. If you don't have a mech at your disposal for CT creation, which takes a couple of hours, you have to prototype one. Prototyping costs a lot of materials and it takes a long time. With no time reducing skills we're talking about 3d 8h for assault class mechs, 6d 16h for mechs and 8d 8h for heavy mechs on a level 1 facility.

Manufacturing also takes quite some time, takes me 11h 16m for an assault class bot at 70% time efficiency in a level 1 facility with low bonus from extensions because I'm fairly new in the game.

Since this change came suprisingly and unexpected, many small time industrials like me don't have bots ready for reverse engineering and have to resort to prototyping.

Now you have a rough idea of a timescale.

I am into Industry but still building the knowledge. I can understand more-clearly now. Almost a week for a bot that sold for under a mil-half. Needs improvement, no doubts. But how does making 100's go without for ? still dont know who/what Corps can produce. Not seeing the flood of sell-orders...at any price. Not directed..directly at you wink

Kwitch wrote:

I am a combat character. I only shoot things. This change does not affect me.

I also have an industrial character, who I have eaten around 50 - 70 million NIC worth of kernels on. I have done this so that I can experience the production side of this game too.

When I started production, I quickly realized the time, NIC, and energy required to make items... and then to compete with the NPC seeds, was difficult. Everyone on forums said 'markets are dead' because they also decided it was difficult to compete and profit. There were many threads about it, and ideas 'shot down' by people who didn't want change.

They were not able to stop change from happening. They were only apply to be negative towards others ideas. Well, here we are.

As has been stated, we ~~~~~~~ posted day one of the change. The immaturity of the OP was obvious, and I assume (it's risky to assume I know) that the devs left it up so that more could post in it as time goes on.

Well this post is for those still wishing to 'add their thoughts':

Unless you are an industrial, don't complain. Corps are starting to produce all sizes of bots to meet the market need. This game is designed for thousands of players to play it, not just the small community we have in closed beta. So your complaints that are filled with unnecessary resentment or criticism without considering the purpose of the test are for nothing, and you waste our time. Consider for what purpose we are meant to test, think about how important player driven economy is for the success of the franchise and half of the future subscriber base, and don't come here to COMPLAIN that you get to play a free mmo and help produce it.

24 hours since the change and people complaining is completely unacceptable.


*edit*
And yes, 'I am combat character,t his does not affect me' is the correct response. If I want a new bot, I check market for one. if there is none on market, I ask corporations that produce them. If no one is online, i post on forums in buy requests, or see that people already offer to make them for me and tell them. And since I shoot things all day, I have money to pay for it. There is no problem here, my enjoyment is primarily from shooting things, not from making things. This change is for the crafters. Please be considerate for them and not make such offensive posts.

Here's an easy alternative. Instead of crippling mech-market, why not remove sell-orders of items that everyone gets...Standard armour, shield, weapons (a/c, em, laser, missile), munition's? Look at Industrialist and the Seqeur. A needed-bot to even a fledgling-Indy..Now to newer-players..perhaps just a myth lol j/k but it could happen (or has it?, could it?...should it?) Different ways to test profiteering|market-stratum's.

Well this post is for those still wishing to 'add their thoughts':

and people complaining is completely unacceptable.

and who are you to complain about me complaining? Just an other POV, that's who. Just like me, just him or her, No more than less, no less than more.

Neoxx wrote:

Kwitch, this does actually mainly affect the combat character, because the crafters dont give two *** that theres no npcs, and it only opens more opportunities to profit.  The crafter doesnt have to change his ways at all to adapt to this, and im sure most wont, since they can keep on not making bots and profit the same way they always have.

This affects combat characters because it will inevitably raise the price at first, and there isnt always a steady stream of bots to find at the right terminal.  This puts the 'stress' on the combat character and not the crafter.


That being said, I'm all for the NPC orders being taken off the market.  I think the current population will be able to satisfy the market demand, even if it is a higher price. It is quite easy to get enough money for the bots, and if the prices rise it will only stress the insurance and related extensions more when they have to purchase each bot from the market.

Looking at the Mech market..umm still only 43 Tyrannos at 10million each. Not one sold yet. 3 Arbalest at 1.5 million, 1 Bap @5mil, 3 Seqeurs @ 2.5mil and 7 waspish ranging from 1.6 ~ 5 mil. Looks stable.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Only tech that comes from Earth is Arkhe.

You're still only complaining about not having your bot right now.

You will still be complaining about not having it until you do, regardless of why.

Change anything. Instant complaints.

None of your points were very well thought out. Hence, your PoV is not as valid as mine.

Closed Beta. It's not free bicycles for everyone. You get to complain once release happens. for now, you are happy tester or gtfo. <3

*edit*
go post in looking to buy thread. talk to DXM, ECorp, m2s, ask in help, find someone mining and ask them, etc. Not trying and not knowing are different things.

Last edited by Kwitch (2010-08-01 15:40:56)

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Neoxx wrote:

the crafter doesnt have to change anything.  Do you have to sell bots? no.

If I wanted a Riveler right now, I'd be no better off than anyone else. When I needed a bot for myself, I was pretty much relying on the NPC, too. I think it's fair to say that things changed for crafters, too, but they have the extensions to make things happen, given enough effort.

We've had and still have a mindset that cannot be easily changed.

I don't just embrace insanity. I feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

We don't want to see how well you can execute market exploits, we want to see the real value of items, as it is quite apparent that what we have as NPC prices are nowhere near them.

Can you please explain what the 'real value' is supposed to mean and what is good it for?

Last edited by Maynard Benaui (2010-08-01 16:38:16)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

Can you please explain what the 'real value' is supposed to mean and what is good it for?

NPC prices are calculated based on their component prices. Which are pretty much made up, as we can't possibly know how much time and resources an average player needs to get them, not to mention all the stations they have to go through until a robot finally drops out of the factory. Fees, investments, losses by low extensions, profit etc.

Real value means the price that should eventually show when demand and supply balance out.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:
Maynard Benaui wrote:

Can you please explain what the 'real value' is supposed to mean and what is good it for?

NPC prices are calculated based on their component prices. Which are pretty much made up, as we can't possibly know how much time and resources an average player needs to get them, not to mention all the stations they have to go through until a robot finally drops out of the factory. Fees, investments, losses by low extensions, profit etc.

Real value means the price that should eventually show when demand and supply balance out.

NPC or player, it will be calculated same way.

Only difference is that your offer on the market is infinite thus setting some minimal and maximal prices. Pretty much like any player with major influence on the market within particular item.

'Real value' does not make any sense to me, the price is constantly changing depending on buying force and without 'free' mineral market this effort is entirely pointless in terms you are highlighting.


I really do not see what you are following here... What is this supposed to be for?

Last edited by Maynard Benaui (2010-08-01 17:25:00)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Kwitch wrote:

Only tech that comes from Earth is Arkhe.

You're still only complaining about not having your bot right now.

You will still be complaining about not having it until you do, regardless of why.

Change anything. Instant complaints.

None of your points were very well thought out. Hence, your PoV is not as valid as mine.

Closed Beta. It's not free bicycles for everyone. You get to complain once release happens. for now, you are happy tester or gtfo. <3

*edit*
go post in looking to buy thread. talk to DXM, ECorp, m2s, ask in help, find someone mining and ask them, etc. Not trying and not knowing are different things.

I have had my bot for a few days. idk why you think soo highly of yourself, nor do I care to find out tongue So taking npc sell-orders out for standard armor, shields, miners, munitions instead of assault< is just a plain-retarded idea, to you?

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

NPC or player, it will be calculated same way.

Only difference is that your offer on the market is infinite thus setting some minimal and maximal prices. Pretty much like any player with major influence on the market within particular item.

Maybe I wasn't clear: NPC robot/equipment prices are calculated from fixed mineral prices that we have set. Did you notice they never changed?

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Maybe I wasn't clear: NPC robot/equipment prices are calculated from fixed mineral prices that we have set. Did you notice they never changed?

And yet you want to get 'real price'...?


In any economy there are some fixed limits, it is natural. Why are you obsessed with it? It does not really matter, if does, can you elaborate why?

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Because NPC prices were so low that industrialists couldn't undercut it without a loss?

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Because NPC prices were so low that industrialists couldn't undercut it without a loss?

Err..then you know the 'real price' then?

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

worst thread ever

Grow up or die

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

We will certainly have a better idea of it than we do now if this 'experiment' turns out well.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

We will certainly have a better idea of it than we do now if this 'experiment' turns out well.


now we just need a reason for people to buy bots, aka they need to lose them, aka we need more pvp:)

Grow up or die

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

We will certainly have a better idea of it than we do now if this 'experiment' turns out well.

If you know that industrials can't make a profit now, you certainly must know how much their price would be.

That is something you MUST know if what you say is the way you say...


The 'real price' would also include market competition as well as free mineral prices, thing you are not counting in and as such, as I already said, make this 'experiment' meaningless.


Sorry Zoom, but this is ***.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

MadGelo wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

We will certainly have a better idea of it than we do now if this 'experiment' turns out well.


now we just need a reason for people to buy bots, aka they need to lose them, aka we need more pvp:)

Or more logically, we just do not need those 'experiments'....

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

real game is real... oh wait  closed beta.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Yeah Devs, how silly of you guys to perform "experiments" in a Closed Beta...

Oh wait...

At the end of the day, we are TESTING this game people, give your feedback after you have tested a change, not by theorycrafting on how you personally got butt-fu**ed. After this has been implemented for a while, Im sure the devs will like to listen to the communities thoughts, but any sooner and it's just whinging because you believe you got short changed in a CB!

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

*EDIT* didnt realize I wasn't on second page, I fail.

*EDIT* after catching up

1) Its beta
2) Nothing you have will last past launch
3) Yep - still beta
4) cake

Might I recommend in the near future increasing the NPC price of ammo and light bots by roughly 50%?  It is currently impossible to make mining charges (my current build cost is 24 NIC and even if I pile on the extensions I don't see how I can shave off the 30-40% required to make it reasonable).

Perhaps a material bonus if you have a 100% research in your knowledge base, to make the knowledge of these basic assets actually do something, and provide a competitive reward for someone who did the research?

Last edited by Darin Raltin (2010-08-02 06:19:44)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

I liked that idea in your other thread.

I've also been suggesting either higher ammo price, or a fluctuating one based on demand.

I just don't think the pegged value was all that awesome.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"