Topic: Worst. Idea. Ever.

So... First off let me say I've been testing MMO's for 20 odd years and have tested alot of them. Eve Online, RFO, Lineage II, 10Six (never released), and APB as just the first few that came to mind... Notice the first one I mention was Eve as it has strong similarities in concept for character development/growth.

I've been meaning to right up my impressions for awhile on the game as a whole, but I'll hold of on most of it...

But today was meant to be special... I finally had enough EP to use a assault mech, I've been waiting a week to play with one and it was meant to be a milestone... Getting a light mech was simple, just requiring figuring out the basics... but... Today I log in... and their are no assault mechs to be had... Because somehow you thought the market could handle this?!?

Seriously, like the title says this was stupid in the extreme. Maybe it you'd _said_ you wanted to move this to player based and told us the community of players/testers it was going to happen in a week... Then things would ramp up and you'd see players come out with them... This was mistake 1...

Mistake #2 is that a pure player market in beta sucks... Eve allowed 4 classes of ships during beta, each 'level' as a whole was unlocked and 1 ship of each class was NPC made on the market (though for higher than what it could be made by players). The reason for this is so their was some market control and people would be able to actually test each level of ships (though NPC's didn't appear until at least 1 player and/or faction could make them). The basic ship wasn't terribly interesting for it's class, but it was functional and handled larger threats than the class below (minus cargo/mining vessels, which aren't made for combat).

Really with no price controls to make them have reasonable costs on mechs and few having the resources to crank them out (I sure haven't seen more than 1 or two on the market since I got into the beta)... And no way I'm getting the research to make an assault myself as I can only handle a pair of lights at a time. An Assault would probably walk all over me... and that's figuring all five to seven in a batch wouldn't come as one which happens alot... So really... Incentive for my to bother to test this as opposed to other games just dropped off.

When commented on in game I got alot of 'you really were't ready for an assault unless you can make your own' crap. That's firstly BS and secondly a great way to play by yourself in a supposedly multiplayer game.

So yeah... anyways... Worst Idea Ever. I may check back later, but for now my confidence in the devs is crap so I have no real desire to even log in.... Way to kill what I've been looking forward to for the last week...

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Shadey wrote:

Maybe it you'd _said_ you wanted to move this to player based and told us the community of players/testers it was going to happen in a week... Then things would ramp up and you'd see players come out with them...

I can tell you what would have happened: everyone and their mother would have started buying them to sell them afterwards for double the price.

We don't want to see how well you can execute market exploits, we want to see the real value of items, as it is quite apparent that what we have as NPC prices are nowhere near them.

Also we don't want you to test robots specifically anymore. We have been doing that for over one and a half year already. We need to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we'll never know how this whole thing will work out upon release.

Give it a couple of days. I've had numerous positive reactions from industrialists like "at last, this should have been done a long ago".

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:
Shadey wrote:

Maybe it you'd _said_ you wanted to move this to player based and told us the community of players/testers it was going to happen in a week... Then things would ramp up and you'd see players come out with them...

I can tell you what would have happened: everyone and their mother would have started buying them to sell them afterwards for double the price.

We don't want to see how well you can execute market exploits, we want to see the real value of items, as it is quite apparent that what we have as NPC prices are nowhere near them.

Also we don't want you to test robots specifically anymore. We have been doing that for over one and a half year already. We need to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we'll never know how this whole thing will work out upon release.

Give it a couple of days. I've had numerous positive reactions from industrialists like "at last, this should have been done a long ago".

*sighs* Then tag NPC ones and don't allow them to be sold ie Syntec items? You already have a system perfectly capable of stopping the exploit. Use it! Don't screw your community on a whim. We don't get paid to help. Suddenly pissing with us is a good way to loose your testers. I've seen it happen. Reminds me in fact of 10six... Or that EA made space MMO I forget the name of where they screwed with us testers (when I left) then released a horrible screwed game that lasted a couple months...

And sure you may have been testing them for as long as the codes existed... I just got my invite a week and a half ago... I've tested basic missions... and more basic missions... and have stuff I've researched, but needs so many mats I could spend weeks trying to get mats... I've wanted to make 1 batch of ammo for 5 days now... but what I get as mats from recycling is several orders of magnitude lower than what it takes...

Want more feedback? Your crafting system needs severe rework... May explain few if anyone ever making anything... I mean seriously... 1000 rounds of ammo takes 2000 metallic mats and more... Recycling the weapon that fires the ammo brings in less than 50 of said mats... and it weighs how much more...? And it takes ammo to kill things to get mats and the costs to keep running are high... Well unless you go miner... I can't afford EP for multiple character builds to even try mining with a bit more than a weeks worth... And my first try is combat focused (the old saying about it being hard to screw up a warrior and all).

You need to work on mission rewards to... oh wow... 20 ammo for killing 5 mechs that each takes 5-10 shots per weapon (from 3 weapons) to kill...

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

this was the help chat. it was very lol.

[14:00:19] <Shadey> ermmm.... why don't I see infinite Baphomets anymore...?
[14:00:20] * Triton is now online.
[14:00:33] <Kwitch> MotD
[14:00:39] * Zorak is now online.
[14:00:40] <Beatrix> New experiment: removed all NPC robot orders from the market except for light robots. Start up those robot factories!
[14:00:47] <Shadey> x.x #%(*#^%(#&*^
[14:00:52] <Stelianos> I rofl'd.
[14:00:59] <Stelianos> These exp[ressions are going to be awesome. big_smile
[14:01:08] * Erseran is now online.
[14:01:14] * eMpTy is now online.
[14:01:17] <Aph3x> so make me an artemis cheap!
[14:01:20] <Beatrix> It shows you're not ready for Assaults if you only had one. D:
[14:01:21] <Shadey> I just finally had enough points to _use_ one... x.x
[14:01:36] <Rock Buster> We're in a robot recession. Gotta build ur own mechs or buy them now. No infinite anything in a recession. tongue pfft.
[14:01:41] <Kwitch> change anything. instant complaints.
[14:01:45] <eMpTy> Grats Shadey smile
[14:02:00] <Stelianos> Yeah, well, they can suck it up. tongue
[14:02:06] <Shadey> fat lot of good it does... well bye... when someone in control grows a brain I'll be back ~_~
[14:02:14] <Stelianos> This game is going to change a lot as long as it's still in beta.
[14:02:15] <Kwitch> Bye Shadey smile
[14:02:24] * Shadey is now offline.
[14:02:25] <eMpTy> bye bye
[14:02:27] <Beatrix> Lawl
[14:02:28] <Stelianos> Bye, Shadey

why post here if you think no one here has a brain?

--
I endorse this new change, and frown upon people that. must. have. instant. gratification. right. now.

Last edited by Kwitch (2010-07-31 01:01:48)

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Kwitch wrote:

I endorse this new change, and frown upon people that. must. have. instant. gratification. right. now.

I frankly don't give a rats ass what you endorse. ~_~
And what part of 'been waiting a week' is INSTANT?!?

Just because you go into beta before me I can't have what you did...?
*sighs* Frankly if your in the community I don't want to be in it...

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

They made a change.

This effected you negatively.

You posted your immediate response the day the change was made.

This change was not made only for you.

This change is the result of months of forum discussion about the markets, npc seeded orders, and the economy. Hours and hours of conversation about what should and should not be done to improve these topics.

Your meaningless crying about 'im quitting!' during the closed beta the day that they try the new change is just that. meaningless.

Lets see if the new industrialists can seed the market themselves, and then make comments of if it was good or not. You do not need to improve your bot today or the world ends.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Shadey wrote:

So... First off let me say I've been testing MMO's for 20 odd years and have tested alot of them. Eve Online, RFO, Lineage II, 10Six (never released), and APB as just the first few that came to mind...

So you are 21 now?


Shadey wrote:

Notice the first one I mention was Eve as it has strong similarities in concept for character development/growth.

cookie granted.

Shadey wrote:

But today was meant to be special...

It kinda was. My girl bought new underwear. Looks awesome!

Shadey wrote:

Because somehow you thought the market could handle this?!?

the market can handle this. But appereatnly you cant. NaturalSelection™

Shadey wrote:

Maybe it you'd _said_ you wanted to move this to player based and told us the community of players/testers it was going to happen in a week... Then things would ramp up and you'd see players come out with them... This was mistake 1...

20 years of testing, hm? TESTING, hmmm? I think you should run some local test at a  psychiatry with yourself. Thats the only mistake i see here. Yep. Mistake Nr. 1. Run brain check before being let into society.

Shadey wrote:

Mistake #2 is that a pure player market in beta sucks...

lulz nr.1

Shadey wrote:

Eve allowed 4 classes of ships during beta, each 'level' as a whole was unlocked and 1 ship of each class was NPC made on the market (though for higher than what it could be made by players). The reason for this is so their was some market control and people would be able to actually test each level of ships (though NPC's didn't appear until at least 1 player and/or faction could make them). The basic ship wasn't terribly interesting for it's class, but it was functional and handled larger threats than the class below (minus cargo/mining vessels, which aren't made for combat).

Damn... Zoom! I told you to wait for this testing professional before moving into next test phase. How could you!

Shadey wrote:

Really with no price controls to make them have reasonable costs on mechs and few having the resources to crank them out (I sure haven't seen more than 1 or two on the market since I got into the beta)... And no way I'm getting the research to make an assault myself as I can only handle a pair of lights at a time. An Assault would probably walk all over me... and that's figuring all five to seven in a batch wouldn't come as one which happens alot... So really... Incentive for my to bother to test this as opposed to other games just dropped off.

random lulz.


Shadey wrote:

When commented on in game I got alot of 'you really were't ready for an assault unless you can make your own' crap. That's firstly BS and secondly a great way to play by yourself in a supposedly multiplayer game.

random lulz.

Shadey wrote:

So yeah... anyways... Worst Idea Ever. I may check back later, but for now my confidence in the devs is crap so I have no real desire to even log in.... Way to kill what I've been looking forward to for the last week..

but you still logged in and still trolling the forum. Why not quit already? btw: random lulz.




NOW LISTEN:

I am LatscherX. Currently i have 4 girlfriends. I am 33 years old and tested MMOs for 2000 years (you know, jesus had that idea back then). The most constructive advice i can (really, this is the only thing you can say) give you is to do the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIdmcjGmni0

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-07-31 03:21:22)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Duude... can you not troll someone when his opinions are against the majority for once? Srsly roll

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Everything has been covered. Experiment, test and closed beta.
They are not gone, just buy one from another player (Like you're meant to)

Last edited by Alexander MkII (2010-07-31 06:42:44)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Duude... can you not troll someone when his opinions are against the majority for once? Srsly roll

Thank you for your request. It was passed to our quality management and will be processed there as soon as possible, for once.

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-07-31 12:46:15)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Duude... can you not troll someone when his opinions are against the majority for once? Srsly roll

Then when do we troll them? Seriously?

Zoom is in ur thread, flaming ur posts.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Preferably never?
I know, it's unheard of big_smile

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Preferably never?
I know, it's unheard of big_smile

Can you report yourself please?

I see me doing you a lot of favour on the forum by saying things you may think but not allowed to say. Be thankfull for this.

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-07-31 13:28:01)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Sometimes I wish you'd keep it at the thinking state too. But yeah, this shouldn't be discussed here.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

I was a little undecided what to think of it and didn't really draw a final conclusion yet.

One thing for certain though, Zoom has a damn good point, I would have bought one mech of each (or as much I have money, which I don't have much) to create a "cheap" CT from it. It didn't really occur to me to stockpile them but thanks for pointing that out heh.

I don't just embrace insanity. I feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

*edit* Flamebait. Get off your high horse please. - DEV Zoom

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-07-31 13:46:58)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

LatscherX wrote:

*edit* Flamebait. Get off your high horse please. - DEV Zoom

Its actually not a horse if you know what i mean lol

Ulviirala wrote:

I was a little undecided what to think of it and didn't really draw a final conclusion yet.

One thing for certain though, Zoom has a damn good point, I would have bought one mech of each (or as much I have money, which I don't have much) to create a "cheap" CT from it. It didn't really occur to me to stockpile them but thanks for pointing that out heh.

Yes. Zoom is right. Everyone woud do that, so it was good that they didn´t announce it.




P.s: better now, zoom?

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-07-31 14:36:25)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:
Shadey wrote:

Maybe it you'd _said_ you wanted to move this to player based and told us the community of players/testers it was going to happen in a week... Then things would ramp up and you'd see players come out with them...

I can tell you what would have happened: everyone and their mother would have started buying them to sell them afterwards for double the price.

Exactly what would have happened.

Plus, in a Beta, things change without warning.  We know this.  We're playing for free anyway. All good reasons to accept changes that are made to test things.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

10Six is known as Project Visitor. Heat Servers never wanted to play 10Six wink

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

New experiment: removed all NPC robot orders from the market except for light robots.

I'd like to know "How many Corps are producing Assault-Bots and higher?" Seems like there's not enough. Well, it's facted, there isn't enough.
I'd like to know who I am buying from (and in-turn, who I am supporting) At least there should be one of the "Mega-Corp" logo's beside sell-orders (non-npc Corp Logo's would be nice too)
I'd like to know what others think of this "experiment" If this game is to cater to a few Corp's, people, friends of the inner-circle...at teh suffering of many, for entertainment? c'mon, let newer/younger players/Corps the opportunity, just because older Corps got vast-wealth with little-competition, shouldn't mean the same treatment/favourtism for the selling of the procurement. hmm

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Instead of a pointless rant you could have asked kindly if somebody could sport you an assault bot. At least we learned who not to recruit.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Death Slinger wrote:

Well, it's facted, there isn't enough.

You seem to have not dealt with the current industry side of Perpetuum yet, otherwise you would very well know that it's way too early to claim that it's facted that there are not enough people manufacturing them.

At earliest you might see orders pop up after a week. If you don't have a mech at your disposal for CT creation, which takes a couple of hours, you have to prototype one. Prototyping costs a lot of materials and it takes a long time. With no time reducing skills we're talking about 3d 8h for assault class mechs, 6d 16h for mechs and 8d 8h for heavy mechs on a level 1 facility.

Manufacturing also takes quite some time, takes me 11h 16m for an assault class bot at 70% time efficiency in a level 1 facility with low bonus from extensions because I'm fairly new in the game.

Since this change came suprisingly and unexpected, many small time industrials like me don't have bots ready for reverse engineering and have to resort to prototyping.

Now you have a rough idea of a timescale.

I don't just embrace insanity. I feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

I am a combat character. I only shoot things. This change does not affect me.

I also have an industrial character, who I have eaten around 50 - 70 million NIC worth of kernels on. I have done this so that I can experience the production side of this game too.

When I started production, I quickly realized the time, NIC, and energy required to make items... and then to compete with the NPC seeds, was difficult. Everyone on forums said 'markets are dead' because they also decided it was difficult to compete and profit. There were many threads about it, and ideas 'shot down' by people who didn't want change.

They were not able to stop change from happening. They were only apply to be negative towards others ideas. Well, here we are.

As has been stated, we could all turn into rubber ducks and this game could become about navigating a bathtub full of water if the developers choose to make it so. This entire thread started as a very big LOL due to the fact that it was posted day one of the change. The immaturity of the OP was obvious, and I assume (it's risky to assume I know) that the devs left it up so that more could post in it as time goes on.

Well this post is for those still wishing to 'add their thoughts':

Unless you are an industrial, don't complain. Corps are starting to produce all sizes of bots to meet the market need. This game is designed for thousands of players to play it, not just the small community we have in closed beta. So your complaints that are filled with unnecessary resentment or criticism without considering the purpose of the test are for nothing, and you waste our time. Consider for what purpose we are meant to test, think about how important player driven economy is for the success of the franchise and half of the future subscriber base, and don't come here to COMPLAIN that you get to play a free mmo and help produce it.

24 hours since the change and people complaining is completely unacceptable.


*edit*
And yes, 'I am combat character,t his does not affect me' is the correct response. If I want a new bot, I check market for one. if there is none on market, I ask corporations that produce them. If no one is online, i post on forums in buy requests, or see that people already offer to make them for me and tell them. And since I shoot things all day, I have money to pay for it. There is no problem here, my enjoyment is primarily from shooting things, not from making things. This change is for the crafters. Please be considerate for them and not make such offensive posts.

Last edited by Kwitch (2010-07-31 22:19:05)

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sometimes I wish you'd keep it at the thinking state too. But yeah, this shouldn't be discussed here.

Thinking is not a prerequisite for forum access.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

There are some corps who have nearly infinite of Assault, Heavy and normal mechs. But the question is: do they want it to share? Having stuff others don´t have is power. Selling would sometimes mean that you give it away. Think that way.