Topic: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Ok, I know its a taboo topic here, but for your own good, I want to bring it up and have some discussion about this issue.

I have played EvE Online in the past for around 3+ years. Had great fun.

This game comes across to me as EvE : The Robot Ground Game. Granted, there are some distinct differences, but at first glance, this game ripped 90% of the concept from EvE online, or at least it appears so.

Don't get me wrong, I loved EvE and I'm really liking Perpetuum so far, but I have to ask: How the heck did Perpetuum get to be so mysteriously similar to EvE Online?

I also want to raise the issue of legality. As most us know, Lawyers are bloodthirsty monsters, willing to sue a company into oblivion for a quick buck. If given the opportunity, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to sue your great company for copyright infringement, claiming that you stole most of your stuff from EvE. Seeing as Perpetuum has such great promise, I don't want to see that happen. Have you sacrificed a virgin to your local lawyer and begged for his advice on this matter?

My humble opinion on this is that Perpetuum appears to be taking the EvE formula (one server, player driven economy, module-based vehicles, time based XP, GUI) and adding great features (such as the EP skill system), and has great potential for being a top-class MMO. Just like its legal to make a "remix" of a song, you have taken EvE's core gameplay and "remixed" it to your liking and have a superior game.

So did you hire talent from CCP? Are you really CCP in disguise? Did you love EvE Online so much, you wanted to make a game similar to it?

Perpetuum is a great game, and I hope it succeeds beyond your best predictions.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

this has been discussed on the eve forums as well. but ccp kinda just moved the forum to not-eve stuff and hasn't said anyting else.

i perosnally don't belive its going to be anything made of the issue, not legally anyway.

most games are copies of wow, but eve was the first sci-fi/space based one in quite some time to be as big and successful as it is.

so its only partial to see great simularities in the two, however... mining... mining seems more like a clone of project entropia/entropia universe than one of eve's system.

i think those that are saying it is an eve clone, are saying so because they have only ever played eve... or have only played eve and wow. which are the two kings in there own relams.

i've dabbled in a dozen games or so in the last few years and i've see alot of simularities in them from one to the next... seems to be somehwat common to borrow "remixed ideas" as eve and wow have a decade or more of development behind them, so why not learn from there mistakes. no since in recreating the entire wheel.

anywho... thats my two nic worths...

\o/
Rava

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Rava wrote:

so its only partial to see great simularities in the two, however... mining... mining seems more like a clone of project entropia/entropia universe than one of eve's system.

Sorry, I lol'd when i read this. EU has a horrendous mining system, Perpetuum's mining system is so fantastically better it's not even worth comparing.

As for the OP, there's nothing truely new in any MMO these days, only upgrades of a previous idea. So long as Perpetuum takes the best and leaves the worst I don't see what's wrong.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Oh well... it's not that this is a taboo topic, because we won't deny the obvious, but we've all seen the mass hysteria on other boards. And you know what happens if someone is wrong on the interwebs.

Do we love EVE?
Yes. Even if most of us haven't even played it ever.

Did we really want to just copy EVE?
Honestly, no.

Let's take the UI, I think most of you are picking on that.

The thing is, there is only one proper way to display lots of data to users in a useful way, and those are: rows and columns. There is only one way to display blocks of text: in textboxes. The simplest buttons you can do are rectangles with text on them. Combine these in the easiest way you can, add some window-management and you get... Windows.
Yes it's true, EVE didn't invent cascaded windows.

I think the only reason you see them so similar is because in contrary to all the fancy window-shapes and decorations those fantasy games have out there, both UIs are built up from the simplest primitive building blocks a UI can have.

Yes, icons are simply sorted into windows one after another (didn't windows 3.1 have that already?).
Yes, quantities on icons are in the lower right corner (where else would you put them?).
Yes, we have human heads as avatars (that's unheard of!).
Yes, the members of the chat are listed on the right side of the window (irc, anyone?).
Yes, you can put a missile launcher (sword) onto your robot's (knight's) chassis (hand).
Yes, you actually need to target someone before you accidentally start shooting innocent bystanders.
Yes, we have a planet on the login screen (...).

I could go on forever.

There were also numerous (and I mean it) occasions, where our programmer put together a simple window layout (for example the market) and he just later found out that he almost exactly copied the layout of the EVE one (mind you, he has never seen that before). Because it was just the most logical way.

Later on, the following conversation pattern came up again and again ridiculous times:
- Ok, I threw some window together for x function, here.
- Dude...
- ...don't tell me this looks like...
- ...

Believe it or not, after some time, when we designed something new for the game, we always checked whether EVE has it, and how it looks, so we DO NOT make it the same.
And most of the time we honestly tried, but it always turned out that it's the most logical and convenient way to do it. And call me a thief all you want, but I will not make something less usable and *** up just so it doesn't look similar to another game.

The simple fact that we are using real world references to build up the world of Perpetuum determines us to be "thieves".
Lasers have long range and do heat damage. Machine guns do not need energy to function and have a high dispersion rate. Electronics need power to operate. Mining, refining, recycling, manufacturing, patents, licenses, corporations. None of these are unique to EVE. It's the reality we live in.

So why do all the people still think we are cloning EVE? Because up until now very few have tried to mimic the economics of reality in such a complex and detailed way as EVE. Now we do.


And now for the Top 5 questions ever, which I couldn't answer on other forums:

- Are you CCP in disguise?
- No.

- Are you in any way affiliated with CCP?
- No.

- Is this Goonfleet's most elaborate scam ever to get all our EVE passwords?
- No.

- Is the Perpetuum client a keylogger?
- Yes, we actually register your keystrokes which are used to move giant robots. We also use advanced braincontrol devices so you will actually want to pay for this.

And my personal favorite:

- Did you take the leaked EVE source code, and just changed the icons, switched the spaceships to robots and simply put some terrain in it?
- Oh God, if it was just that simple... err I mean, no.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Rava wrote:

i've dabbled in a dozen games or so in the last few years and i've see alot of simularities in them from one to the next... seems to be somehwat common to borrow "remixed ideas" as eve and wow have a decade or more of development behind them, so why not learn from there mistakes. no since in recreating the entire wheel.

Same here. I see a lot of ideas from here and there. I think you're going to see more and more games using time-based skill systems in the future as players start getting used to the concept. Riding the roller coaster is fun, but it gets boring after about the 3rd or 4th go-around.

edit: Good reply, Zoom. I completely agree. You can put one partition on another side, but it's really just the same thing. All the real-world market tools I've looked at are nearly identical, too, because it's just easier to use it this way. I do find it interesting that the guy that was working on all this had never played EVE before. Just shows that a good design is a good design, great minds think alike, and that if you think you have a unique idea, somebody else is probably having it at the same time.

FYI, (as if I need to repeat this to the geeks in the crowd...) those window thingies were on Macs way before anything Microsoft did, and it the entire concept was invented by some nobody at Xerox (who thought the whole concept was a joke and let it all go for a song and dance... bet they feel like heels now. wink )

Last edited by Fumen (2009-11-12 01:10:12)

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Ok, I'm glad I asked.  You cleared up lots of issues, and so you aren't CCP. CCP isn't gonna sue you over Perpetuum's similarities. Thats awesome. (CCP is honestly too cool to do than anyways)

However, since you are making a very similar game to EvE, (which you have made it completely clear that it was not intentional), why not learn from Eve's mistakes?
Things I hated about EvE:
1. Buying skillbooks (you already got this one covered)
2. Long travel times (large network of jump gates? nope. giant areas of "space" just to have "space", not here)
3. Mining (well thats a problem in any game. I'll let the business types deal with that one. I want a decent alternative to humping rocks to make money to buy my big guns)
4. Tower Warfare. Ok here is where you guys can learn from what CCP did a bad job on. The tower warfare mechanic in EvE to claim territory is just plain awful. Stront timing, filling endless numbers of towers with resources just to keep them running. I really hope you guys don't make that mistake
5. You couldn't go out into "lawless space" without being part of a giant corporation, and in a giant group of warships. (Ok, so you haven't really addressed PVP issues or corporations owning land yet. I have good faith that you guys will come up with something good)
6. A massive capital carrier that can launch a dozen high-firepower drones should not be shoehorned into a logistics capital role. If i'm piloting a carrier, i want to blow *** up, not keep my teammates healthy. (Lets keep the roles of our robots clear. If you have an assult class missile-boat, don't give it bonuses for remote repair modules!)
EDIT:
7. We like going to one place to buy and sell our stuff! Don't try to spread us out just because your Jita server can't handle the load! (This isn't so much a problem as the world is nowhere as big as EvE's but make sure you can handle lots of traffic to a central location, so we can have a convenient place to buy and sell our stuffs.)
8. Big battle lag! Both sides bring 1000+ people to a major confrontation, and your system server craps out because it can't handle the load. (If large scale PVP is a goal for Perpetuum, make sure your servers can handle it. Otherwise, put some sort of limiting mechanic so we can't have lag fests because two big corps are fighting).
9. Eve's music got BORING! Playing the same stuff over and over gets old quickly. (Not too much you can do about this one, but options like adding an in-game mp3 player, or an internet radio would go a long way to keeping us entertained while we grind for money. An official Perpetuum internet radio station would be awesome for this purpose.)

Thank you for answering my questions with some real answers, and not your typical corporate ***.

Last edited by TheGeek (2009-11-12 02:10:24)

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Long travel times is an issue we're perfectly aware and have many ideas for that, jumpjets, personal teleports, antigravity engines which lift you a little above the ground (to counter ridiculously fast moving legs), fast little transport vehicles, armored carriers, etc. We also need a module to counter demobilizers, so something will definitely be done about this.

Corporational warfare and land ownership is of course a feature you will eventually see ingame, but I can't say too much about these at this time. First things first, we need to get missions working.

The rest of your points mostly depends on resources which we currently do not have, and those need to be addressed together with our growth. I am not a network programmer, so I can only hope the guys are doing the foundations with these aforementioned scenarios in mind smile

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

We are all subject to, and somewhat stunted by what we have experienced before, most of contemporary science has come about because it was inspired by the science fiction of the past. There is no way from getting away from it. As far as I'm concerned I love EVE, if this is like EVE but better/different then great! More power to it, less developers working on crappy games that are similar to games I hate.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Meno wrote:

We are all subject to, and somewhat stunted by what we have experienced before, most of contemporary science has come about because it was inspired by the science fiction of the past. There is no way from getting away from it. As far as I'm concerned I love EVE, if this is like EVE but better/different then great! More power to it, less developers working on crappy games that are similar to games I hate.


quoted for truth

i will prefer eve-inspired games over wow-inspired games anytime, anywhere at any price!

so keep up with your good work (and fix material requirements info on patent/licenses wink

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Understek wrote:

i will prefer eve-inspired games over wow-inspired games anytime, anywhere at any price!

so keep up with your good work (and fix material requirements info on patent/licenses wink


WoW actually just copied what other mmos had already done so you can't technically say wow-inspired wink

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

I do believe, as DEV Zoom stated "the most logical way" seems to obviously influence the gameplay as well as the features.

Create a ground based, Sci-Fi MMO, and tell the devs to keep it simple. I guess, 9/10 times there would be staggering similarites.

Like LOTRO seems to be WoW with Gandalf and Gimli (remarkably almost identical gameplay, looks, and setup altogether)

I have yet to see a Cyberpunk/Sci-Fi MMO which reminds me of Anarchy online. The closest match was Tabula Rasa, but all those WoW punks got slighly overchallenged by the game and quit. lol

Last edited by Shareida (2009-11-12 19:54:10)

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

As some people have hinted before, games borrow ideas from other games.
Have you noticed that almost all FPSs have the exact same controls, or that almost all fantasy MMORPGs have almost the exact same features? The only difference is that EVE is a very original game, which bases the gameplay on a player-controlled market, patience and strategy rather than grinding. As EVE and Perpetuum are the only games in their class, the similarities stand out more, that's all. If Perpetuum resembled EVE as much as most fantasy MMORPGs resemble each other, it would be based on spaceships and not even use the EP system.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Yes its true there are many similarities in the way certain things in Perpetuum and Eve Work so far, but as has been aid there are only so many ways you can do things.

Eve is far from perfect and CCP are constantly trying to make improvements / correct mistakes, and I am sure Perpetuum will be the same as we are after all only human and nothing is ever perfect.

No matter what great ideas the Dev's have for Perpetuum they can never be quite certain how they will work out until they have let several thousand players find all the "oportunities" to cause chaos with them.

Titans in eve were expected to be rare with never more than a handful in game for instance, now some alliances have 12 or more of them adn at least 30 have been destroyed. So it goes to show that the best made plans sometimes just dont work as you expected. Dont even get me started on the flawed Alliance mechanic that allows one player to ruin the work of thousands of others.

We as Beta testers can provide input based on our experience and personal preferences so as to try and help the Dev's make this game as good as it can be (from our point of view) prior to release. We can suggest things that we have seen elsewhere and come up with ideas of our own.

Perpetuum will be itself its not an Eve clone, it has similarities, both written by people, both written on computers etc etc... I think its best to not get hung up on this and just enjoy it for what it is and try and help the Dev's to develop it in its own direction.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

My 2 nics:
when i began playing, i first tought: oh what a total ripoff. But after playing more, i see the differences. Mining, shooting while locking, taking cover, plants growing, terraforming are all features that are not present in EVE.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Mr White wrote:

My 2 nics:
when i began playing, i first tought: oh what a total ripoff. But after playing more, i see the differences. Mining, shooting while locking, taking cover, plants growing, terraforming are all features that are not present in EVE.

Not to mention better than eve. big_smile

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Blackomen wrote:
Mr White wrote:

My 2 nics:
when i began playing, i first tought: oh what a total ripoff. But after playing more, i see the differences. Mining, shooting while locking, taking cover, plants growing, terraforming are all features that are not present in EVE.

Not to mention better than eve. big_smile

At this point I'll say better only because the devs are more responsive. I feel like I'm paying Verant to participate in 'The Vision' with CCP at times. Those that have been in MMOs for more than the last 6 years (and played the original EQ) knows what happened to Verant and 'The Vision'....

I'm going to say comparing these two games, over the long run, will probably be like comparing two prime cuts of meat. Both have their own merits and qualities. Both are savory delights, but satisfy two slightly different appetites.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

I guess every one who has played eve and tries perpetuum will at first see the same game just different equipment to run around in, and anyone completly new will take it for what it is.
Having played eve yes there are a lot of similarities in the panels that we work from but the game play is very different. some will love it some will hate it  but that is any game.
i see and hear a lot of people comparing mmorpgs with the dreaded WOW  but it wasn't the first of its kind so why is this  my opinion is its the most known/populated. The systems we use will make it very easy for ex eve players to pick up the game and run with it  and after a little bit of time see that it is its own game, the end of the day I liked playing EVE and strangely with no missions and a lot of game play work to do I still find hours of game play each day,to my mind that is a very good singn for my future in perpetuum,I can not get over how the DEVS/GM's interact with the testers in help chat, If you ask any question in help a dev will answer you and if you ask a very god question a debate can start between the player base and the devs with some sometimes silly but often great ideas,
I have take part in a lot of beta's but i have never seen this much time spent with the players from devs.I believe this will help to develop the game further. To my mind there are to very different games for the player but there very similar as well,This topic will go on for as long as Eve and Perpetuum go on and i cross my fingers that both will have a very long life.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Perpetuluum is a eve like game, and im very happy for it. Eve online was thefirst bringing one server, no instance sandbox system and perpetuum devs took that good exemple to make a good project.

Like DEV Zoom said, there are some obvious interface similarities, which eve had one advantage : they were first applied these technics in their games. (played game from 2003 and i know how their first interface looks bad and complex)
Im really looking forward to perpetuum Online, its not finished indeed but have lots and lots of potential.

Its probaby impossible to create an total original video game, every game takes some technologies, design and game dynamics from others, important is the evolution of the game.

my 2 cents.

ps: As a designer i fanatically suggest to read John Maeda's book "The law of simplicy" to all perp designers, it really expanded my mind as an interface designer  smile (if they arent allready read it )

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Ok, I'm sorry, but PLEASE DON'T IMPLEMENT ANY DRONES! EVER! It's like the Necromancer in diablo 2. A great idea at first glance, but then Mr Lag comes in and pwns the game.

eve is already struggling with this, and even an old game like d2 still can't cope. Sure, it's fun to be your own 1 man army, but it's not fun for everyone else, and then suddenly everone wants to not be everyone else, so everyone becomes the 1 man army, and the server dies.

As for similarities between eve lol If you think eve invented anything new, then you simply haven't played enough games. All the concepts from eve have been borrowed from other games. eve wasn't even the first sandbox game.

Even some dev's from eve have admitted that the game was largely inspired by Elite. That's just one of tyhe games it borrows from though.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Understek wrote:

quoted for truth

i will prefer eve-inspired games over wow-inspired games anytime, anywhere at any price!

so keep up with your good work (and fix material requirements info on patent/licenses wink

/signed

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

I like EVE, but there is one thing that i hate(and i think 99.9% ppl will agree) - PvE. Its no point to do it in a group and it's veeeeery boring, it's like hated work, shame for such cool in other aspects game.
I hope Perpetuum will have much more interesting PvE...

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Just another comment on the gui topic:
When i first logged in and realized just how much this game is like eve, it took me about 10 seconds to figure out how to access my bot config, inventory, skills, market and so on...
Is that a bad thing? Hell no!

After all, we don't look for new games to play so we can enjoy a different look&feel of another user interface, do we?
No - It's the gameplay and game mechanics that keep me interested in a game in the long run.

That being said - When it comes to UI systems, i fully approve of copying stuff that has already been working well.

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Ok here's my nickles worth on the topic: wink
I played EVE for a year as an Indy. I liked it, started a small corp and had my own manufacturing and research POS. I started Perpetuum and like the diffeances for the Indy. I look foward to the changes for manufacturing. big_smile
Now to state the obvious, hmm has any one ever opened a spread sheet or data base, sure it may be made by any of the frontend programs out there but it will still be the same with maybe the bells and wistles moved from one place to another. MMO's or MUD's as when I first started playing on line games using BBS's have all borrowed from each other in one fashion or another just like we did in opperations planning with our spreadsheets and DB's. It's ok, why would you reinvint the wheel when all you need to do is tweek it (put treads on it), make it out of something else (rubber instead of wood); that is why I have never understood the OMG you just ripped off X-MMO roll . That is business, to find a product which is sucessfull see if you can get some of that market share then build a produt to do as much. This is good for us in that it prings better products, better customer support, and hope fully better pricing structures. Any how just my take on this OP tongue and cudos to the DEV's of Perpetuum. cool -V

Last edited by Vintnor DiEisen (2010-03-07 02:46:41)

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

Shareida wrote:

I have yet to see a Cyberpunk/Sci-Fi MMO which reminds me of Anarchy online. The closest match was Tabula Rasa, but all those WoW punks got slighly overchallenged by the game and quit. lol

NOOOOOO why do you torture mee?? i loved TR with my whole life sad, it was the best game for me, the perfect game, the bugs didnt mattered as long as the community, game, scifi content, graphics, gameplay, everything was the same! I loved that game, i've been looking for one similiar to it since it's shutdown...
Anyways, the devs are doing a great job here, 10-12 persons working on such a big proyect and going through it succesfully amazes me, i dont know this game will be as good as TR tho, but it will surely be veryyy good.
BTW when i played TR, i never could pay, so i created like 43853503 trial accounts and started ove and over and over. Imagine the much i liked the game...

Re: The obligatory EvE Online thread.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Oh well... it's not that this is a taboo topic, because we won't deny the obvious, but we've all seen the mass hysteria on other boards. And you know what happens if someone is wrong on the interwebs.

Do we love EVE?
Yes. Even if most of us haven't even played it ever.

Did we really want to just copy EVE?
Honestly, no.

Let's take the UI, I think most of you are picking on that.

The thing is, there is only one proper way to display lots of data to users in a useful way, and those are: rows and columns. There is only one way to display blocks of text: in textboxes. The simplest buttons you can do are rectangles with text on them. Combine these in the easiest way you can, add some window-management and you get... Windows.
Yes it's true, EVE didn't invent cascaded windows.

I think the only reason you see them so similar is because in contrary to all the fancy window-shapes and decorations those fantasy games have out there, both UIs are built up from the simplest primitive building blocks a UI can have.

Yes, icons are simply sorted into windows one after another (didn't windows 3.1 have that already?).
Yes, quantities on icons are in the lower right corner (where else would you put them?).
Yes, we have human heads as avatars (that's unheard of!).
Yes, the members of the chat are listed on the right side of the window (irc, anyone?).
Yes, you can put a missile launcher (sword) onto your robot's (knight's) chassis (hand).
Yes, you actually need to target someone before you accidentally start shooting innocent bystanders.
Yes, we have a planet on the login screen (...).

I could go on forever.

There were also numerous (and I mean it) occasions, where our programmer put together a simple window layout (for example the market) and he just later found out that he almost exactly copied the layout of the EVE one (mind you, he has never seen that before). Because it was just the most logical way.

Later on, the following conversation pattern came up again and again ridiculous times:
- Ok, I threw some window together for x function, here.
- Dude...
- ...don't tell me this looks like...
- ...

Believe it or not, after some time, when we designed something new for the game, we always checked whether EVE has it, and how it looks, so we DO NOT make it the same.
And most of the time we honestly tried, but it always turned out that it's the most logical and convenient way to do it. And call me a thief all you want, but I will not make something less usable and *** up just so it doesn't look similar to another game.

The simple fact that we are using real world references to build up the world of Perpetuum determines us to be "thieves".
Lasers have long range and do heat damage. Machine guns do not need energy to function and have a high dispersion rate. Electronics need power to operate. Mining, refining, recycling, manufacturing, patents, licenses, corporations. None of these are unique to EVE. It's the reality we live in.

So why do all the people still think we are cloning EVE? Because up until now very few have tried to mimic the economics of reality in such a complex and detailed way as EVE. Now we do.


And now for the Top 5 questions ever, which I couldn't answer on other forums:

- Are you CCP in disguise?
- No.

- Are you in any way affiliated with CCP?
- No.

- Is this Goonfleet's most elaborate scam ever to get all our EVE passwords?
- No.

- Is the Perpetuum client a keylogger?
- Yes, we actually register your keystrokes which are used to move giant robots. We also use advanced braincontrol devices so you will actually want to pay for this.

And my personal favorite:

- Did you take the leaked EVE source code, and just changed the icons, switched the spaceships to robots and simply put some terrain in it?
- Oh God, if it was just that simple... err I mean, no.

THIS is what will make me want to pay and play post beta.

PLEASE don't ever change.

Yes there are similar things between this and eve and anyone who's played eve will slip into the game easily but in the same breath, we're in the infancy of a game here.
Eve was originally all 0.0 and pure pvp and over the years it's been dumbed down and down.

If Perpetuum sticks to its current ideals and focuses on "end game" content being pvp contested teratory and gives us the tools to do that rather than pandering to the pve croud this'll be an awesome game.

I'm just hoping that that love of the game stays with the devs and the sway of money doesn't take over smile