Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Maynard Benaui wrote:
Sinister wrote:

I am saying that at this stage it is totally useless.

That is why it is a beta.

Release content, fix bugs, balance & polish -> release.

Beta testers are pretty much expected to write their opinion about the game. Since we do not see the plans of the Perpetuum team, we can build our opinions on the current stage. I simply dont see what is your problem with it.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

So, we come to the start again.  Thelodica mechs need another bonuses.

/me waiting for DEVs response

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Mr White wrote:

Beta testers are pretty much expected to write their opinion about the game. Since we do not see the plans of the Perpetuum team, we can build our opinions on the current stage. I simply dont see what is your problem with it.

Release content, fix bugs, balance & polish -> release.

You talk to someone who was bothering devs with more insight to future changes probably more than anyone else since my concern about the game for now is conceptual mostly...

I have no problem at all, I just tried to explain why you can find practicaly impossible to be constructive about balancing issues because so much is missing and being subject to change.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Maynard Benaui wrote:

That is why you have extra armor.

I think about it like this:
High armor buffer, shield for specific situations and roles, accu injector for your accu issues.

Just wait for more content to come...

The problem with that is that other mechs have bonuses that complement each other perfectly. The thelodica ones have bonuses that work against each other. If you want to balance the game, then either change the thelodica mechs, or change all the other mechs so that no mechs have bonuses that work in harmony.

Imo, it's better/easier to give the thelodica mechs a boost rather then nerfing all the other mechs.

And as to specific situations, there's a limit to how much you want to specialize a combat bot on a non-combat role. You'll want spank and tank regardless. In every game, tank and spank classes/ships/vehicles are always the most popular, and for good reasons. Without dps, you can't kill anything. Without tank, you wont live long enough to kill anything.

Besides, shields totally blow atm. On my alt I've put almost all the ep in to shield and accumulator extensions, and my alt can't even tank a single npc with a shield hardener equipped. And that's with a sequer (which has a shield bonus). Never mind what players would do to it.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Matsuro Shi wrote:

And as to specific situations, there's a limit to how much you want to specialize a combat bot on a non-combat role.

I am not talking about non-combat roles and situations.

1) As it was said before, there are planned weapons that lets you shoot through shields. That is where armor HP will most likely play big role.

2) We can see new stats as minimal range on weapons. I don't know how this mechanics will work but it will eventualy replace tracking mechanics, here is where shields might come handy - raise your shields and rush to your opponent while having accurate short ranged lasers fitted.


Those are just 2 possible uses of shields in junction with possible new content. I can think about some more but I can't say it will work like this nor I can say it won't.

Messing with bonuses and balance overall does not seem to me to make any good now.


EDIT: Discussion about tanking abilities - shield or armor might be worthy, but then again, we would need to know devs opinion first.

Last edited by Maynard Benaui (2010-02-05 21:53:38)

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Maynard Benaui wrote:
Matsuro Shi wrote:

And as to specific situations, there's a limit to how much you want to specialize a combat bot on a non-combat role.

I am not talking about non-combat roles and situations.

1) As it was said before, there are planned weapons that lets you shoot through shields. That is where armor HP will most likely play big role.

2) We can see new stats as minimal range on weapons. I don't know how this mechanics will work but it will eventualy replace tracking mechanics, here is where shields might come handy - raise your shields and rush to your opponent while having accurate short ranged lasers fitted.


Those are just 2 possible uses of shields in junction with possible new content. I can think about some more but I can't say it will work like this nor I can say it won't.

Messing with bonuses and balance overall does not seem to me to make any good now.


EDIT: Discussion about tanking abilities - shield or armor might be worthy, but then again, we would need to know devs opinion first.

They plan to begin open beta in Q1, that's less than 8 weeks at max unless they break their plan. So if now isn't the time to balance their game, then when the hell is? Do they just let everyone join in open beta and find that the game is incredibly imbalanced and then lose most of those players because of it? That would be a very bad idea. They want people to join and realise that this has shaped up to be a decent game. They're the new company on the block and if they show some serious flaws it will put people right off the game.

These days the general population sees open beta as a chance to see if the game is any good, this is thanks to many large companies using open beta as a marketing tool.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-02-06 13:05:56)

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

GOOD JOB, EVERYONE, IGNORING THAT THEOLODICAN NATIVE WEPONS BARELY OUT DAMAGE, WITH BONUSES, THE  UNBONUSED AUTOCANNONS.

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Maynard Benaui wrote:

I am not talking about non-combat roles and situations.

1) As it was said before, there are planned weapons that lets you shoot through shields. That is where armor HP will most likely play big role.

Yes, but a bot that can tank but not shoot isn't helpful to any gang. See passive drake for reference. And that can shoot thanks to capless weapons. Still useless for a gang though.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

2) We can see new stats as minimal range on weapons. I don't know how this mechanics will work but it will eventualy replace tracking mechanics, here is where shields might come handy - raise your shields and rush to your opponent while having accurate short ranged lasers fitted.

Yes, you can rush in, but then your ap is empty, and then what? And rushing in with long range weaponry was always a good tactic roll

Maynard Benaui wrote:

Those are just 2 possible uses of shields in junction with possible new content. I can think about some more but I can't say it will work like this nor I can say it won't.

Well, actually, I'd say you listed zero, as your tactic falls on it's face when the bots run out of ap.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

Messing with bonuses and balance overall does not seem to me to make any good now.

Something has to be done, and sooner is always better than later. If other bots can have bonuses that complement the playstyle and overall tactics of the bot, then the thelodica ones should be the same.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

EDIT: Discussion about tanking abilities - shield or armor might be worthy, but then again, we would need to know devs opinion first.

No need for that. I already told you, I have an alt with more than 20k ep dedicated to shields, and it can't even tank a single light robot npc in a bot with bonuses to shield. That makes shields useless to bots which rely heavily on AP for their guns.

Siddy wrote:

GOOD JOB, EVERYONE, IGNORING THAT THEOLODICAN NATIVE WEPONS BARELY OUT DAMAGE, WITH BONUSES, THE  UNBONUSED AUTOCANNONS.

They also have less range.

Last edited by Matsuro Shi (2010-02-06 13:27:34)

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Matsuro Shi wrote:

Maynard Benaui wrote:

I am not talking about non-combat roles and situations.

1) As it was said before, there are planned weapons that lets you shoot through shields. That is where armor HP will most likely play big role.

Yes, but a bot that can tank but not shoot isn't helpful to any gang. See passive drake for reference. And that can shoot thanks to capless weapons. Still useless for a gang though.

Matsuro Shi wrote:
Maynard Benaui wrote:

2) We can see new stats as minimal range on weapons. I don't know how this mechanics will work but it will eventualy replace tracking mechanics, here is where shields might come handy - raise your shields and rush to your opponent while having accurate short ranged lasers fitted.


Yes, you can rush in, but then your ap is empty, and then what? And rushing in with long range weaponry was always a good tactic roll

Matsuro Shi wrote:
Maynard Benaui wrote:

Those are just 2 possible uses of shields in junction with possible new content. I can think about some more but I can't say it will work like this nor I can say it won't.


Well, actually, I'd say you listed zero, as your tactic falls on it's face when the bots run out of ap.

1) As it was said before, there are planned weapons that lets you shoot through shields.

That includes your own shield.

2) Accumulator Injector


3) I listed possible use of shields. That is a conceptual use, turning it into working and real use is only a matter of adjusting a few numbers but that can't be done until all modules are released.


I would only had to repeat what I already said to Sinister before and the discussin would be as fruitfull since you are already settled your mind no matter how reasonable argument is brought up thefore this topic is closed for me.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Your listed possible use of shield is useless. A short range user will never be able to use his shields to close in on a long range user, unless the long range user is incompetent. All the long range guy has to do is keep the short range guy at range while pounding on him, his ap will run out, his shields will gone down, and then he can die a helpless death. The short range guy will never get close enough to make a hit.

I don't see how you have such a hard job understanding this simple and obvious problem. Artemis and Seth already don't have enough AP to even fire their weapons without running out of AP in a short amount of time. Why in the hell would they further waste AP and a slot by fitting a shield? It's LOL ridiculous, to put it bluntly. The time it takes for their AP to drain just from firing medium lasers is already LOL ridiculous. Fitting a shield too? That's double LOL.

The way thel bots were designed it looks like they made to tank with their armor, and definetly not their AP (shield is AP basically) why else would they have so much of it? The heavy AP drain of medium lasers makes every fight for thel bots a balancing act of keeping the AP and armor in check. The second you start using a shield the armor is removed from the balancing game and instead you're just draining your AP to nothing in seconds as the enemy does damage directly to your AP instead of your armor (by hitting your shield) while you also drain your own AP by firing your guns. By time your shield is gone, so is your AP, now you're left with 100% armor and no AP, what good is that? That's why thel bots have to balance AP and armor hitpoints at the same time instead of just letting AP rapidly deplete followed by the armor.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-02-06 15:53:05)

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

It's like this...

1st scenario

You're in an artemis, you have a shield and the ability through it with lasers. You're being shot at and you're also returning fire, every point of damage you take is draining your AP because of the shield, your armor isn't being touched. Your AP runs out before the target dies and now there's nothing left for you to do, you still have 100% armor at this point but all of that will soon be gone because you cannot defend yourself with no AP.

2nd scenario

You're in an artemis, you don't have a shield equipped, you even have a wasted shield bonus on your bot but still you'd rather not use it. You're being shot at and you're returning fire. Your AP is being drained by firing your guns but nowhere near as fast as when you had the shield on. Your armor is going down but nowhere near as fast as your AP was when you were taking shield damage and firing your weapons in scenario one.

Who do you think does better here? Scenario 2, even though he has a wasted bonus, he gets to fight for longer because his AP doesn't run out and although he is taking armor damage for the entire fight, his armor lasts a lot longer than his AP did in scenario 1. That's because armor taking damage lasts a lot longer than AP taking damage while also being drained by firing of lasers.

Take a look at Standard medium HCL laser, 30 ap per 6 seconds, you have 4 of these, with decent skills and a laser tuning that's gonna be around 120 ap drained every 4 seconds. 120 SHIELD HITPOINTS drained every 4 seconds, just to fire your guns. Since when using a shield AP is what powers it we can consider it this way.

Last edited by Sinister (2010-02-06 16:02:40)

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

and noone complains about the terraformer-bonus on harvester bots? right now thats the most useless bonus, because terraforming isnt implemented yet.

i see shield bonus on those mechs the same - they are not ready yet

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

and noone complains about the terraformer-bonus on harvester bots? right now thats the most useless bonus, because terraforming isnt implemented yet.

i see shield bonus on those mechs the same - they are not ready yet

I understand what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Terraforming is something we know very little about, and we most certainly can't test anything that relates to it. Terraforming is 100% not implemented yet.

Shields are halfways implemented, and we know a lot about them. We are able to test most aspects of how shields work. We know for certain that shield basically transform your AP in to an extra buffer, AP that thelodica bots really can't spare.

The only thing that can change this around is by making shields/shield equipped thelodica bots overpowered. The problem is that lasers (being the most AP intensive weapon) just don't mix very well with shields. Firing the lasers will kill your buffer, and using that buffer will kill your guns.

In the real world, one or the other is not sufficient. You need a balance of both to excel. Besides, lasers don't deal that much damage, so you can hardly say that it makes up for not having an applicable tanking bonus, when other bots do (em bots, I'm looking at you).

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

still, for me, its not the bonus on the mechs that should be changed.

for me, the weapon-type laser needs a bonus that justifies their low damage but high AP-consumption and that should not be restricted to laser bots.

And - its not the bonus on those bots that is stupid. its the perhaps to high power-consumption of shieds that is perhaps stupid.

Perhaps, because i couldnt test it til now.

last but not least - didnt someone notice that the standard-shield bubbles are to small? if your bot is bigger then the shield, then the DMG/AP ratio is worse then the base value.
you have to equip a med shields on small bots to get a better ratio.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

I think there's an argument regarding the shields bonus and mostly its a prudent thought as shields do take away being able to shoot and couple that with using lasers the ap use is huge.

If there are further things to be implemented then at that point we should see some nice changes and hopefully balancing will work and shields become viable option.

At this point we are still blind and untill further patches and updates are added we just dont know.

~The only other thought that i see is maybe changing the shields slot req, to head instead of leg. That way it can be more customized with the use of ap recharges, injectors or auxillery, and thus puts the onus back on the fitting preference of what your role will be.

Uber tank or Ew massive damge or mixture of all this is what makes the game fun finding a personal choice based on variety of tools that complent out own playing styles.

Never going to please 100% of people 100% of the time.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

hmm,
I have to to the math and some testing, but right now, it looks like the shields are an option for my artemis

my Med-Armor repairer has a cycle time of ~10s and consumes more then 300 AP per cycle, for 180 Hitpoints repaired.

standard medium shield: 20AP/5s
shield hardener: 30AP/15s

efficiency: 0.5ap/HP (makes ~7260 Hitpoints against all damage types)

my shield-skills are not as high as my repper-skills yet. -> but

now fit in a med energy injector - 300 HP/11s refilled
or, fit in an med energy-drainer - ~180 AP/10s

still have to do the math on field, but it doesnt look THAT bad on paper.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

hmm,
I have to to the math and some testing, but right now, it looks like the shields are an option for my artemis

my Med-Armor repairer has a cycle time of ~10s and consumes more then 300 AP per cycle, for 180 Hitpoints repaired.

standard medium shield: 20AP/5s
shield hardener: 30AP/15s

efficiency: 0.5ap/HP (makes ~7260 Hitpoints against all damage types)

my shield-skills are not as high as my repper-skills yet. -> but

now fit in a med energy injector - 300 HP/11s refilled
or, fit in an med energy-drainer - ~180 AP/10s

still have to do the math on field, but it doesnt look THAT bad on paper.

but you can't SWOOP DA HOOP while tanking with your shield

IMO armor tank with firing ability > megashield tank with no weapons. So shield now looks good only on e-war bots


P.S. Topic was about thelodica mechs bonuses, not about shield pluses and minuses

Last edited by Aelali Mazeratti (2010-02-10 00:33:45)

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

One thing, I do not like the idea of lasers using ammo so I think it needs to go the way of Eve and add focusing crystals (there is one buff for lasers).

Two, I exactly agree on how shields and Thel interact with each other is in an undesirable state. You need AP to fire but you need AP so you do not lose HP which can not be replinished without using more AP. AP! AP! AP!

Would allowing people to fire though certain shields with certain weapons even do anything here? You are still using AP to tank and fire weapons, which unless you have a HUGE accumlator, crazy recharge rate, or dedicated bot feeding you AP, it doesnt make sense, strategically.

But in the end, I guess, it is not our game (is it?) and they have the final word. So my vote for lasers and shields would be:

No ammo (single item to effect damage type) for lasers.

Shields allow you to fire through them.

Of course, I am in the minority here so I know it wont happen sad

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

no ammo cant be done... but thats anothe issue

The Laser bots got shields probably to activate them in close combat, to get away.

btw, this topic is not new - a few weeks ago there was the question:
why do missile bots have a shield bonus.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Zyllos, to answer your question on a 'reality' level about laser ammo: Our high end weapon-grade lasers all require charges of some sort to fire which are destroyed in the firing of the laser. Also, the optics don't last very long. Of course, these lasers tend to immediately vaporize whatever they contact causing explosions and all sorts of goodness.

Industrial grade lasers (on the scale of a several watts) don't need any sort of fueling, but they do need regular optics maintenance for the heavier duty ones. They are used for cutting, and depending on the material, it can be slow. (Lets put it this way: plasma cutters are still the preferred tool for cutting steel and other metals.)

I think the day will come when we develop a very high power laser system that won't need constant refueling, but who's to say that this other civilization is one that has done that yet?

Now, I know this is sci-fi. Any good sci-fi is going to be grounded in science facts, though. Otherwise, what's the difference between the sci-fi and wizards wiggling their fingers?

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Fumen wrote:

Zyllos, to answer your question on a 'reality' level about laser ammo: Our high end weapon-grade lasers all require charges of some sort to fire which are destroyed in the firing of the laser. Also, the optics don't last very long. Of course, these lasers tend to immediately vaporize whatever they contact causing explosions and all sorts of goodness.

Psuedo sciense


The term "laser" is miss used here, but let us asume it describes all EM waveforms of similar characteristics.

You can emmit rather well coherred beams of Infrared lasers without your "opticks". (Lenses and mirrors)

You are hell bent on the idea that all lasers shoot visible pew pew beams, while in reality most devastating laser for atmospheric warfere is X ray laser or infrared laser.

Also the "charges consumption" you refer to is only likely to occur to solid state laser emitting units, if overcharged to the point it short sircuit and get exposed to oxygen.

If that happens, the so called laser is fail and as far away from wepons grade equipment as my ass is from the dark side of the moon.

Keep your sciense away from goddamn games.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-02-11 11:58:58)

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Siddy wrote:
Fumen wrote:

Zyllos, to answer your question on a 'reality' level about laser ammo: Our high end weapon-grade lasers all require charges of some sort to fire which are destroyed in the firing of the laser. Also, the optics don't last very long. Of course, these lasers tend to immediately vaporize whatever they contact causing explosions and all sorts of goodness.

Psuedo sciense


The term "laser" is miss used here, but let us asume it describes all EM waveforms of similar characteristics.

You can emmit rather well coherred beams of Infrared lasers without your "opticks". (Lenses and mirrors)

You are hell bent on the idea that all lasers shoot visible pew pew beams, while in reality most devastating laser for atmospheric warfere is X ray laser or infrared laser.

Also the "charges consumption" you refer to is only likely to occur to solid state laser emitting units, if overcharged to the point it short sircuit and get exposed to oxygen.

If that happens, the so called laser is fail and as far away from wepons grade equipment as my ass is from the dark side of the moon.

Keep your sciense away from goddamn games.



Keep your goddamnbroken language away from us!? :>

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

btw, this topic is not new - a few weeks ago there was the question:
why do missile bots have a shield bonus.


OFFTOP: Missiles don't use ap and heve low rof, so you can shoot, activate shield when you getting hit, deactivate, shoot again. Repeat until the sun go down.

Re: Stupid bonuses on laser mech and heavy mech

Aelali Mazeratti wrote:
Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

btw, this topic is not new - a few weeks ago there was the question:
why do missile bots have a shield bonus.


OFFTOP: Missiles don't use ap and heve low rof, so you can shoot, activate shield when you getting hit, deactivate, shoot again. Repeat until the sun go down.

Ideally, yes, but...

1. You can't fire until the shield completely drops. If you do, you deal no damage. (I'm not sure if this is due to server desync or a delay effect on the shield dropping as I didn't notice any damage dealt until the shield was completely down.)

2. If you put the shield back up before the missiles hit, you do no damage. This makes attempting to cycle the shield and fire nearly pointless unless you are taking no fire directly.