Topic: How to do insurance properly.

I saw a dev mention perpetuum will be getting insurance, it should not be unlimited or it will end up being a massive cause of inflation, you should only get paid insurance for a certain amount of bots lost every month.

In 1 month you could insure your bots and receive payment if you lose them, but only up to a total of 100 points per month. If you go over 100 points, you can't insure your bots.

For example a light bot is worth 10 points, an assault bot is 15 points, a mech is 30 points, a heavy mech is 60 points. This means you could lose several light bots, or 3 mechs, or 1 heavy mech and 2 mechs and receive insurance on the loss every month.

The numbers can be tweaked a bit to be balanced but this is a way to include insurance ingame without leaving it open to exploitation.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Some interesting thoughts there. You are right of course, as that other game has a huge problem with insurance atm. On the one hand, it makes sure minerals don't drop below a certain threshold, but on the other hand, it artificially keeps the prices of ships higher than they pontentially could be worth.

I think one way of doing it is basing insurance payouts on actual market value of the materials used in the bot production. I read a post by Zoom which hinted at there being no insurance for suicide ganks. This in it self will reduce insurance scam potential of course.

I like your idea though, but as you say, it would need some tweaking. But unlimited insurance just means that there are no real losses, which is bad imo. I still think the payouts should be dymanic though, to prevent insurance from interfering with market values.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

I haven't spend much time thinking about the subject of a NPC run insurance system but I was wondering what role such a system would fulfil in perpetuum? In other words: Why put one in at all?

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Sinister wrote:

I saw a dev mention perpetuum will be getting insurance, it should not be unlimited or it will end up being a massive cause of inflation, you should only get paid insurance for a certain amount of bots lost every month.

In 1 month you could insure your bots and receive payment if you lose them, but only up to a total of 100 points per month. If you go over 100 points, you can't insure your bots.

For example a light bot is worth 10 points, an assault bot is 15 points, a mech is 30 points, a heavy mech is 60 points. This means you could lose several light bots, or 3 mechs, or 1 heavy mech and 2 mechs and receive insurance on the loss every month.

The numbers can be tweaked a bit to be balanced but this is a way to include insurance ingame without leaving it open to exploitation.

Could you please post some hard data as to why you believe this will cause inflation?

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Ok, for those who miss the obvious...

Players mine/recycle minerels and use them to build mechs. bots get destroyed, players get paid 100% of the bots value in NIC. This system adds a lot of NIC to the game, probably a lot more than any other feature. This is somewhat controlled by severely limiting how many times you can insure your ship over X period.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

If you have no insurance at all, new players will be quickly discouraged. Imagine the psychological impact. You finally have enough NIC to buy a new mech, you go out and poof. Everything gone. Back to square one. Will he start over again? Probably no. Result? Player quits.

I guess the makers of the MMO would not like that.

OTOH, yes, insurance can be abused. How depends highly on what's left over when you blow up another mech. Just his cargo (or even only part of it)? Parts of his equipment? Maybe additional parts that can be sold or are necessary for advanced materials? Especially with the latter case, it might even be quite profitable to insure your mech and have a buddy blow you up. You cash in the insurance, he gets the goodies that your blown apart carcas offers, instant cash generation.

The more can be salvaged from a shot mech, the less insurance can pay to keep the economy balanced. I could even see a bonus system similar to one used in real life insurances, the more mechs you lose per month, the higher your premium (after all, you're a high risk to the insurance company), contrary, if you don't lose mechs for a while your premium gets cheaper.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

AFAIK, the market and insurance system is planned to be nearly completly playerdriven.

which means, you can insure your bot, but you cant get everything back, if theres not everything on the market.

which also means - NPC-dropped named equip wont be replaced most time.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

A proposal:

Insurance is not payed if the bot is destroyed by a police tower or a corp mate/squad member

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Roastduck wrote:

A proposal:

Insurance is not payed if the bot is destroyed by a police tower or a corp mate/squad member

+1 big_smile

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Roastduck wrote:

A proposal:

Insurance is not payed if the bot is destroyed by a police tower or a corp mate/squad member

-1

this was scrapped idea from the everyone seem to know game because most newbies do get shot by police at game and losing insurance for this did not make them happy.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Felicia wrote:

-1

this was scrapped idea from the everyone seem to know game because most newbies do get shot by police at game and losing insurance for this did not make them happy.

Just add pop up window when attacking a player...problem solved...

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Roastduck wrote:

A proposal:
Insurance is not payed if the bot is destroyed by a police tower or a corp mate/squad member

This has already been confirmed by a dev. No need to vote on it. I personally think it's perfectly reasonable. If it was the other way around, it would improve insurance scam profitability.

Fumen wrote:

Could you please post some hard data as to why you believe this will cause inflation?

Allow me. In that other game, ships are usually not sold below a vertain threshold. This is due to the fact that it becomes more profitable to pop said ship after it's been insured.

Now, you're right in saying that it won't cause rampant inflation, but it will have an effect on the bot market as well as the raw materials market. In other words, it'll prevent bot prices from being truly player controlled, as well as raw material prices.

So no, it won't excactly cause inflation, but it will prevent deflation, thus ensuring that the entry barrier for new players is always kept at the same level or higher.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

I' assuming everyone is versed enough in the lingo of "that other game" to understand me when i say I bought a battleship and fitted it with T2 equipment, and the insurance would STILL cover my ship AND the fittings. That's not exactly a perfect system.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Maynard Benaui wrote:
Felicia wrote:

-1

this was scrapped idea from the everyone seem to know game because most newbies do get shot by police at game and losing insurance for this did not make them happy.

Just add pop up window when attacking a player...problem solved...

Guess which game had pop up for this and how much it helped. It appears that people aren't that good at reading.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

I'll try and find the link to this research.  A group took some people, and put them in front of a computer.  They then would randomly have pop-ups show on the screen.  Many of the pop-ups had text that said things like 'Click ok to get a virus' or 'Don't click ok, click cancel'.  If memory is severing me correctly, around 80% clicked ok on the bad pop-ups.  So ya, people won't read the warning.  Perhaps a voice over, where the very first time a player deploys to the surface, they get a 20-30 second voice over explaining 'Shoot at players, get shot by Towers.  Get shot by Towers, no Insurance' in addition to a pop-up.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Lanny wrote:

I'll try and find the link to this research.  A group took some people, and put them in front of a computer.  They then would randomly have pop-ups show on the screen.  Many of the pop-ups had text that said things like 'Click ok to get a virus' or 'Don't click ok, click cancel'.  If memory is severing me correctly, around 80% clicked ok on the bad pop-ups.  So ya, people won't read the warning.  Perhaps a voice over, where the very first time a player deploys to the surface, they get a 20-30 second voice over explaining 'Shoot at players, get shot by Towers.  Get shot by Towers, no Insurance' in addition to a pop-up.

i disagree with this. leave it at a pop-up. it's the player's responsibility to keep him/herself informed and not play like a moron

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Matsuro Shi wrote:

I think one way of doing it is basing insurance payouts on actual market value of the materials used in the bot production. I read a post by Zoom which hinted at there being no insurance for suicide ganks. This in it self will reduce insurance scam potential of course.

Market value from where? The region the mech died in? I'd just put up some dozens of minerals for a few hundred millions on the market then, and, if the system would require that, buy them on my alt.
Then it'd be payday for me, off we go with a 100k mech that gets a 100m insurance payout.

If you consider the average of all markets in the game, the calculation is going to end up VERY distorted as mechs in outer regions will cost a lot more.

I don't think that a player-run insurance will ever work at all. No real insurance company in the world would ever insure tanks in a warzone (correct me if I'm wrong, doh).

Nobody insures anything against something that WILL definitely happen. There are insurances against tornados, theft, water damage in houses and apartments, car insurances, but none of those things are CERTAIN to happen. Infact they're unlikely enough to make the business profitable for the insurance.

The only exception is a life insurance, where the statistical probability of someone's death makes sure that the insurance company always recieves more than they pay, and that incase someone SHOULD die unexpectedly fast, the other paying customers make up for the loss.
That's why the amount of the monthly insurance payments depend on whether someone is a drinker or smoker, the lethal risk in his job, his health, etc.

This leads to the following two options:
1.) Either make insurances profitable enough, and EVERYONE will run an insurance company in game, which will completely ridicule the point of even having them, or
2.) let players insure against 100%ly certain deaths and let them go bankrupt.

Phew. I think that summarized my thoughts quite well.

Last edited by RiceIord (2010-01-16 22:34:17)

Re: How to do insurance properly.

RiceIord wrote:

Nobody insures anything against something that WILL definitely happen. There are insurances against tornados, theft, water damage in houses and apartments, car insurances, but none of those things are CERTAIN to happen. Infact they're unlikely enough to make the business profitable for the insurance.

The only exception is a life insurance, where the statistical probability of someone's death makes sure that the insurance company always recieves more than they pay, and that incase someone SHOULD die unexpectedly fast, the other paying customers make up for the loss.
That's why the amount of the monthly insurance payments depend on whether someone is a drinker or smoker, the lethal risk in his job, his health, etc.

This leads to the following two options:
1.) Either make insurances profitable enough, and EVERYONE will run an insurance company in game, which will completely ridicule the point of even having them, or
2.) let players insure against 100%ly certain deaths and let them go bankrupt.

Phew. I think that summarized my thoughts quite well.

A few side comments: You'll find that in the auto-insurance industry, statistically, you will be in a wreck at some point in your life that your are at fault. The gamble is on how frequently that occurs (and why rates go up for people more 'at risk' of wrecks.) Also, a house will likely suffer water damage at some point. Again, it's a matter of time as to when. (Usually it's really new houses and really old houses.) You pay the insurance premiums, the insurance company invests in a variety of short and long term plans, and uses the interest to make money. When there are problems in the insurance business is when major, widespread disasters occur (major floods, hurricanes/typhoon/cyclone, widespread hailstorms, etc.) that drains all the coffers at once.

I think there could be a player ran insurance program as long as it was managed by game mechanics. Base it off the same actuarial data that real insurace companies would use: security standings, location you are active in, and frequency of lost equipment. This would create a 'rate' and players could invest in the companies running insurance. Involve yourself in activities like piracy, and there goes your insurance all together. (Well, it'd get ridiculously expensive.)

Re: How to do insurance properly.

RiceIord wrote:

Market value from where? The region the mech died in? I'd just put up some dozens of minerals for a few hundred millions on the market then, and, if the system would require that, buy them on my alt.
Then it'd be payday for me, off we go with a 100k mech that gets a 100m insurance payout.

If you consider the average of all markets in the game, the calculation is going to end up VERY distorted as mechs in outer regions will cost a lot more.

Market value as in average of the entire market, and market value is not based on listed sell pices. Market value is based on the average price the goods where actually sold/bought at. So you'd have a very difficult time manipulating the price. Sure, you could buy a huge quantity of minerals, list them at an inflated price and then buy them with an alt repeat a few times, but that only works until somebody figures out what you're doing, and then they'll take you to the cleaners by listing minerals at a slightly lower but still massively inflated price.

RiceIord wrote:

Nobody insures anything against something that WILL definitely happen. There are insurances against tornados, theft, water damage in houses and apartments, car insurances, but none of those things are CERTAIN to happen. Infact they're unlikely enough to make the business profitable for the insurance.

Allthough I never mentioned player run insurance, I believe Fumen gave a good answer to this.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Fumen wrote:

...

I think you entirely skipped my points, tbh.


Matsuro Shi wrote:
RiceIord wrote:

Market value from where? The region the mech died in? I'd just put up some dozens of minerals for a few hundred millions on the market then, and, if the system would require that, buy them on my alt.
Then it'd be payday for me, off we go with a 100k mech that gets a 100m insurance payout.

If you consider the average of all markets in the game, the calculation is going to end up VERY distorted as mechs in outer regions will cost a lot more.

Market value as in average of the entire market, and market value is not based on listed sell pices. Market value is based on the average price the goods where actually sold/bought at. So you'd have a very difficult time manipulating the price. Sure, you could buy a huge quantity of minerals, list them at an inflated price and then buy them with an alt repeat a few times, but that only works until somebody figures out what you're doing, and then they'll take you to the cleaners by listing minerals at a slightly lower but still massively inflated price.

Hard to manipulate?

Let's assume the price of 1 Titanium is 1 NIC, I'll go to the Daoden Beta Terminal, put one up for sale for 10 billions and buy it off myself. There goes your average.

Can be repeated endlessly, even without tax loss after some EP spending.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

RiceIord wrote:

Let's assume the price of 1 Titanium is 1 NIC, I'll go to the Daoden Beta Terminal, put one up for sale for 10 billions and buy it off myself. There goes your average.

Can be repeated endlessly, even without tax loss after some EP spending.

that should be posted on bug or balancing wink

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:
RiceIord wrote:

Let's assume the price of 1 Titanium is 1 NIC, I'll go to the Daoden Beta Terminal, put one up for sale for 10 billions and buy it off myself. There goes your average.

Can be repeated endlessly, even without tax loss after some EP spending.

that should be posted on bug or balancing wink

That's neither a bug nor a balancing issue, it's free market and the reason why basing insurance payouts on market prices won't work.

EDIT: Well, unless those calculations are done manually to avoid dependency on market averages. But that doesn't require a set of game mechanics, any player could run an insurance company like that at any time, even now.

EDIT 2: Hmm. HMM. Some useful tools that show who paid their rates and who didn't and stuff might add to the manual implementation of an insurance of course. Rice, /over.

EDIT 3: What a waste of development effort. tongue

Last edited by RiceIord (2010-01-18 19:42:18)

Re: How to do insurance properly.

i meant, that you can buy your own stuff AND that is affecting the statistics is clearly an exploit.

hence it should be either considered as bug or something that needs to be balanced.

Re: How to do insurance properly.

I like the limited points idea, but why not have direct EP spending (along with NIC) to cover insurance? Would really cut down on who feels it worthy to spend EP on insuring a heavy mech

Re: How to do insurance properly.

Bunkerkind Anni wrote:

i meant, that you can buy your own stuff AND that is affecting the statistics is clearly an exploit.

And I meant that it isn't an exploit, especially not clearly an exploit. I could just use an alt instead. Or a friend. This isn't a balancing issue. It isn't an issue at all.