Topic: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Ok I spent some time working out a viable solution to fixing the loot/manufacturing issues while not removing any of the usefulness of the current systems.

1. Remove "ALL" module/equipment/ammo drops from npcs completely.

2. Make npcs drop "ONLY" kernels and new loot items that will be used in manufacturing named items.

3. Raise the value of kernels to appropriate levels to compensate slightly. (Not too much as the new manufacturing items will help as well.)

4. Now "ALL" items are either bought from the npc market or other players who manufacture them.

5. Introduce new patents for "named" items, these patents require the same minerals as normal ones, however also require the new manufacturing loot drops from npc's to make. (Giving manufactures something they need to buy from npc hunters/mission runners in order to produce the better gear.)

6. When you kill an enemy player he still drops his equipment which will still be damaged, and thus repairs will still be used.

7. Manufactures and pvp'ers will still have things they don't need, and thus recycling will still be used.

Unless I am missing something (And I'm only human.) this system would work far better than the current one, and not cause the game's economy/industrialists to lose all purpose later in the game. Much like Eve online has gone and ruined with recycling loot and named/T2 items.

I'd love to hear any arguments against this, so I can refine the idea.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

I might be missing something here (and if so, please enlighten me), but the aim here is to not have an abundance of named items, so standard item manufacturing still stays viable. So what's the difference between npc's dropping rare minerals and npc's dropping named items even rarer?
I mean if we set the named drops rare enough so they don't endanger the standard market (and they still will be destroyed in pvp) then why go through all the rare-mineral-manufacture hassle?

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Blackomen wrote:

Ok I spent some time working out a viable solution to fixing the loot/manufacturing issues while not removing any of the usefulness of the current systems.

1. Remove "ALL" module/equipment/ammo drops from npcs completely.

2. Make npcs drop "ONLY" kernels and new loot items that will be used in manufacturing named items.

3. Raise the value of kernels to appropriate levels to compensate slightly. (Not too much as the new manufacturing items will help as well.)

4. Now "ALL" items are either bought from the npc market or other players who manufacture them.

5. Introduce new patents for "named" items, these patents require the same minerals as normal ones, however also require the new manufacturing loot drops from npc's to make. (Giving manufactures something they need to buy from npc hunters/mission runners in order to produce the better gear.)

6. When you kill an enemy player he still drops his equipment which will still be damaged, and thus repairs will still be used.

7. Manufactures and pvp'ers will still have things they don't need, and thus recycling will still be used.

Unless I am missing something (And I'm only human.) this system would work far better than the current one, and not cause the game's economy/industrialists to lose all purpose later in the game. Much like Eve online has gone and ruined with recycling loot and named/T2 items.

I'd love to hear any arguments against this, so I can refine the idea.

Well, the "no unique/named drops" design is a very valid one, but if one is going to go that direction, there's little reason to continue the existing patents. Rare/named drops exist to provide an artificial scarcity - if more powerful gear can be produced by players, it quickly becomes the standard (see T2 in Eve) unless it's prohibitively expensive to build it (see T3). 

I'd personally prefer to see pretty much everything coming solely from the player market or as damaged drops, though at a lower rate of those than the current one. Damaged equipment would come assembled, huge in cargo and expensive to repair, but is a reward for someone who just wants to shoot things and doesn't care about efficiency. The damaged equipment could also be recycled for your suggested new manufacturing components. I'm not too bothered by loot recycling into raw materials, but keep the amounts lower with more wastage. Essentially, in order of efficiency to get a particular module:

Industrial production and miner interaction>recycled loot>repaired drops

As soon as there's enough volume in a product that players are producing somewhere near the consumption rate, turn off the npc suppliers. Don't wait until there's enough capacity, but turn them off as early as possible and allow the market to respond to the demand. If things get tight, the price will go up and people will attempt to fill that need.

At the same time though, no complaints that "I put x resources/time into setting up my foo production line, and now everyone's doing it! I demand special treatment/guaranteed income!"

The way I see it, most of what you're looking to do *other* than removal of named gear could be done simply by adjusting drop rates from NPCs, making every drop other than ammo damaged, and reducing recycling return rates. Adding kernels as a robot manufacturing requirement is another option, as long as the NPC buy orders are removed.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

I think what the OP is complaining about is an argument that has existed in EVE for a while now: the drop rate of modules from NPCs is high enough that 95% of mining is useless. (yes, I'm making up that statistic... shoot me.) This causes two problems: the base modules are near 100% pointless to manufacture IF they drop off NPCs and the number of minerals coming from refined NPC drops in some cases constitute something around 70% of the new minerals in the game. (Other cases the reprocess only accounts for about 25% of the new minerals in the game.) So far over the nearly 3 years I have played EVE, I've heard the same argument from players and so far CCP, the developers, have not changed anything.

I can see that some players don't want a newer game making the same mistakes that CCP did on this with EVE. After all, why repeat mistakes when a lesson can be learned from somewhere else? (I'm not sure what the actual mistakes are, though. I can only see some players wanting things rebalanced for their benefit.)

I'm neutral one way or the other on the matter. I can only say that I do mining only when the mining is worthwhile on a per hour basis versus other activities I could be doing. (farm cash to buy the minerals or farm the minerals)

I have played games where the players have to resource 95% of the materials for item construction, but those games have almost consistently had passive harvesting available. The active resourcing got boring REALLY fast. FYI, this wasn't MMOs such as WoW or EQ where crafting was more a hobby than a absolutely required part of the game.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I might be missing something here (and if so, please enlighten me), but the aim here is to not have an abundance of named items, so standard item manufacturing still stays viable. So what's the difference between npc's dropping rare minerals and npc's dropping named items even rarer?
I mean if we set the named drops rare enough so they don't endanger the standard market (and they still will be destroyed in pvp) then why go through all the rare-mineral-manufacture hassle?

Well when I wrote this suggestion, I had not yet talked with one of the dev's and found out items would indeed be destroyed in pvp. (As they currently all survive only damaged.) So yes, in fact replacing my idea with just making them "VERY" rare would indeed work. However the issue is that if they are not rare enough or difficult enough to aquire, they will completely replace all the standard items currently made by players, unless of course players are able to make them as well. My suggestion was purely from the standpoint of "if stuff is never destroyed in combat" I was pleasantly surprised to hear this will change.

JONAS:

The reason I suggested they be player made only, is that this way the manufactures don't become obsolete. (Which I can guarantee would happen if PVE'ers were the ones to acquire the "best gear" in the game.) However if the items are indeed destroyed in pvp, and are rare/difficult enough that not everyone can afford them, then indeed the current method works perfectly. Again my suggestions were on the understanding modules are never destroyed in combat.

FUMEN:

First off I'm not complaining, I'm suggestion and offering ideas, if the game was launched, and the system was set in stone and I were currently paying a subscription, then I'd be complaining. tongue

Now you are completely correct that Eve Online is where I'm pulling my experience and foreshadowing of the events (And possibly broken system.) to come, if the system ends up similar to eve's incredibly broken manufacturing system. And of course I don't want to see this game to walk off the same cliff. The idea is to learn from others what worked, and what didn't, and to learn from it. Many MMO's have failed to do this (Stares harshly at Warhammer Online.) and have miserably failed even with a near inexhaustible supply of money and support.

Anyone that had gone into any depth with eve's manufacturing system can tell you that T1 stuff is "ABSOLUTELY" worthless for anything other than an ingredient to make T2 stuff. Now if we follow the same system, we notice that Eve also has many named items, however these not broken because they are inferior to T2 stuff. Now the game does have higher end so-called named items (Faction, Officer, etc.) Now these all drop off npcs as well, but are not replacing T2 because of their extreme difficulty to acquire, and rarity.

As it stands now in this game, the named loot is basically the equivalent of named goods in eve, as they provide a small boost (Some considerably more than others.) over the basic manufactured stuff. However they are not particularly rare, or difficult to acquire (My hanger with 6 of them I acquired in less than 20min will confirm this.) Either the named items need to be made (With extreme difficulty.) Or dropped. (With extreme rarity AND difficulty.) Or I believe they will kill all standard module manufacturing in less than a month after launch.

Ok if you havn't fallen asleep already reading my wall of text, it's over now. big_smile
As you can see I fell quite passionate about this game succeeding where the last failed. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to bandage my fingers.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

My appologies. I see the argument so much that it has basically turned into whine threads on the forums over there. I jumped to conclusions.

You have several valid points. However, To make manufacturing pure, you'd have to more or less remove all drops off NPCs. The downsides to that is the difficulty in getting enough materials and keeping the markets properly supplied. I'm sure values would come up high enough to where even the most jaded 'anti-miner' would pick up a shovel and pick. This, to me, does not make a fun game.

One thing I've noticed so far in reprocessing items is the horrible rates. With even mediocre skills, it's worse than EVE. I'll admit I'm only at recycling 3 or 4 and the agent standings can not be raised right now. However, I'm getting less than 50% of the 100% 'perfect manufacture' value on the items.

Currently, from what I've seen, the named drops are pretty rare. (Think deadspace and faction stuff in EVE for rarity.) I've a feeling that it's not going to be the game breaker. In EVE, it's the commonality of basic items and 'meta' gear dropping from mission farmers (I normally use another, less friendly term there...) that has unbalanced the manufacturing profession. I think right now it is too early to judge the named items. I do think you need to be more concerned about the drop rates in live on the regular standard modules.

I haven't had any PvP experience yet in the game. With what would be a 100% loss, I'm not quite ready to go head-first into playing with it. (I am prepping a few combat bot patents for mass production, though.) So far the only modules I've seen are the ones off NPCs. From the fact that modules can take damage, I figured it would be a safe assumption they would possibly be destroyed in PvP.

For the most part, cashflow doesn't appear to be an issue in this game. (Corp storage is only 200 NIC each; named items are the only things that can't be manufactured; production and research are the somewhat expensive sections) If that's the case, you'd just need enough flow to pay for the manufacturing and research jobs. You could then theoretically take out all NPC drops except the cores that can be sold for NIC. It just then becomes a question of where you want resources to come from and the validity of the low-end industrial model.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Fumen wrote:

My appologies. I see the argument so much that it has basically turned into whine threads on the forums over there. I jumped to conclusions.

You have several valid points. However, To make manufacturing pure, you'd have to more or less remove all drops off NPCs. The downsides to that is the difficulty in getting enough materials and keeping the markets properly supplied. I'm sure values would come up high enough to where even the most jaded 'anti-miner' would pick up a shovel and pick. This, to me, does not make a fun game.

One thing I've noticed so far in reprocessing items is the horrible rates. With even mediocre skills, it's worse than EVE. I'll admit I'm only at recycling 3 or 4 and the agent standings can not be raised right now. However, I'm getting less than 50% of the 100% 'perfect manufacture' value on the items.

Currently, from what I've seen, the named drops are pretty rare. (Think deadspace and faction stuff in EVE for rarity.) I've a feeling that it's not going to be the game breaker. In EVE, it's the commonality of basic items and 'meta' gear dropping from mission farmers (I normally use another, less friendly term there...) that has unbalanced the manufacturing profession. I think right now it is too early to judge the named items. I do think you need to be more concerned about the drop rates in live on the regular standard modules.

I haven't had any PvP experience yet in the game. With what would be a 100% loss, I'm not quite ready to go head-first into playing with it. (I am prepping a few combat bot patents for mass production, though.) So far the only modules I've seen are the ones off NPCs. From the fact that modules can take damage, I figured it would be a safe assumption they would possibly be destroyed in PvP.

For the most part, cashflow doesn't appear to be an issue in this game. (Corp storage is only 200 NIC each; named items are the only things that can't be manufactured; production and research are the somewhat expensive sections) If that's the case, you'd just need enough flow to pay for the manufacturing and research jobs. You could then theoretically take out all NPC drops except the cores that can be sold for NIC. It just then becomes a question of where you want resources to come from and the validity of the low-end industrial model.

No worries on the whining comment, I too have seen the same things repeated on the forums of eve for years, I think what made that so bad is that the dev's turned a deaf ear to common sense there.

Anyway back on topic, I can assure you mining enough minerals would definitely "not" be an issue, in fact you'd likely mine way too much for demand sake, even with all the loot drops removed. Just the mech sized mining bot Dezgard has is pulling in 1.6 MILLION units an hour of one of the hardest minerals to mine. (quantity wise) And there is still going to be 1-2 classes of miner bots bigger than the mech. (Heavy mech, Destroyer Mech) And this is a good thing by the way, it will help compensate for lack of loot to recycle from npcs.

Now with that said, yes it's nearly impossible to tell at this point the exact (perfect) solution to the problem because the game hasn't been tested under a system packed with hundreds or even thousands of players on at a given time. So quantities/supply/demand isn't really possible to get perfect, my suggestions are simply what I "believe" would get the game closer to that point until the fine tweaking can be done in open beta or around that point.

And if Tabula Rasa is any indicator, a unbalanced/bad open beta can irreversibly damage a MMO. (I miss that game. sad )

The advantage I see with "ALL" items removed from npc's erxcept for kernels, is this...

1. Player A kills 20 npcs in his noob bot and loots 20 kernels.
2. Player B mines for 30min and manufacures a few guns and some ammo.
3. Player A Sells kernels to npc vendor for x amount of NIC
4. Player B puts built stuff on market.
5. Player A takes earned NIC and buys more ammo and some improved guns over his starter guns.
6. Rinse and repeat.

This makes a nice smooth system with no flaws in my view. And only pertains to PVE, with PVP there would of course be people coming back to buy more repeatedly. Indies make the stuff, pve'er and pvp'ers use and destroy the stuff. When you introduce pve'ers and pvp'ers as players to "create" stuff by doing what they do, then you have overcomplicated the system, and potentially damaged any chance of an economy. And this does not hurt Pve'ers in any way, they are still inticed to go out and kill bigger stuff in order to get kernels that are worth more NIC (Perhaps on a multiplying system.) And let's face it, Pvp'ers are not that interested in making money, they "typically" just want enough to keep using that favorite bot/gear/ammo and kill other players in a war, or just for their personal entertainment.

Well I think I've broken down my understanding and suggestions of this idea as much as I can, and likely repeated myself a few times trying to reiterate my point. I don't think I can offer much more on the topic.

Edit: Typo's and clarifications.

Last edited by Blackomen (2009-11-06 19:06:47)

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

I want to give another comment, probably somewhat a side comment, the human side of loot.

Looting is actually somewhat exciting in games. You know, maybe that next mob has that rare world drop purple or that faction armor hardener, has some unusual stuff, or has something that drops only with 10% chance, or maybe something that the player can use. Every killed mob or bot is a new "lottery ticket". Reducing all loot to kernels only would totally kill this exciting feeling, and casual players would be disappointed.

Also i think players like when they have all kinds of stuff collected as "loot". Something that feels and seems like a lot, something that feels like an archievement. I am not sure that 120 kernels give the same feeling as an inventory full of different items.

You surely have some solutions to this problem, but i leave it to you tongue

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Remove fully functioning gear from NPC drops completely but keep the idea. Replace weapon drops etc with a material which drops in exactly the same quantities as the items used to, relative to the amount required to produce an item specified by the patent. These materials would mirror items in the sense of loot/rarity but will have to be used in the manufacturing process to create named items etc.

This way you can still get the feeling of looting something special, its just instead of being able to use that item or sell it right away you'll have to manufacture something with it, this includes indies in the loop encompassing all areas of the game. You would also still be able to pile up items as Angel said, its just they would be very rare raw materials.

I'm not sure how well I've explained this but feel free to say if it doesn't come across well and I'll try to explain it better using examples.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Blackomen wrote:

JONAS:

The reason I suggested they be player made only, is that this way the manufactures don't become obsolete. (Which I can guarantee would happen if PVE'ers were the ones to acquire the "best gear" in the game.) However if the items are indeed destroyed in pvp, and are rare/difficult enough that not everyone can afford them, then indeed the current method works perfectly. Again my suggestions were on the understanding modules are never destroyed in combat.

Yes. I think we're on slightly different sides of the Eve side of the argument, but not on extreme polar opposites. I don't see manufacturers as obsolete in Eve at all, though my manufacturing side is small-scale in Eve. Trading has a better isk reward for me personally, but large industrialists aren't exactly hurting. They have a large investment of time and effort, and a deservedly high reward.

I'd like to see things tweaked in Eve rather than done completely differently. (other than lvl4 hisec mission risk/reward, where I'm a bit of an extremist) 

However, I think that the damaged/destroyed drops from NPCs and PvP in PPO aren't necessarily a gamebreaker, even if they're more powerful than player-produced gear. If they stay at the level they appear to be now, (which looks to be similar to deadspace/faction gear, if not all the way down at officer levels) it should add something to strive for rather than a must-have.

If industrialists can produce the most powerful gear in the game, however, human nature will quickly ensure that that gear becomes the standard and that the standard gear is irrelevant for serious players - see T2, even at the insanely overpriced level of the T2 BPO cartels.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Styx wrote:

Remove fully functioning gear from NPC drops completely but keep the idea. Replace weapon drops etc with a material which drops in exactly the same quantities as the items used to, relative to the amount required to produce an item specified by the patent. These materials would mirror items in the sense of loot/rarity but will have to be used in the manufacturing process to create named items etc.

This way you can still get the feeling of looting something special, its just instead of being able to use that item or sell it right away you'll have to manufacture something with it, this includes indies in the loop encompassing all areas of the game. You would also still be able to pile up items as Angel said, its just they would be very rare raw materials.

I'm not sure how well I've explained this but feel free to say if it doesn't come across well and I'll try to explain it better using examples.

And where would the patents or licenses come from to manufacture these items? In a PvP game where the modules are rare enough, the resources to build the items likely would become worthless while we'd wait on that rare license or the single 'chokepoint' item to drop.

I'm all for balancing mining and manufacturing in any game, however, this is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen in an open world MMO. (No, it's not your original idea, so don't feel bad about at least attempting to use it.) It worked in WoW and EQ because of the class based system and non-consequential PvP. I've not seen it work too well in true PvP games previously. (Nearly everyone but the item collectors quits bothering with the whole process.)

If drops are going to be nearly all removed, I'd rather see a container knowing that something worth my time of opening is in there, or at least a relatively high chance of it being worth something.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Angel of Death wrote:

I want to give another comment, probably somewhat a side comment, the human side of loot.

Looting is actually somewhat exciting in games. You know, maybe that next mob has that rare world drop purple or that faction armor hardener, has some unusual stuff, or has something that drops only with 10% chance, or maybe something that the player can use. Every killed mob or bot is a new "lottery ticket". Reducing all loot to kernels only would totally kill this exciting feeling, and casual players would be disappointed.

Also i think players like when they have all kinds of stuff collected as "loot". Something that feels and seems like a lot, something that feels like an archievement. I am not sure that 120 kernels give the same feeling as an inventory full of different items.

You surely have some solutions to this problem, but i leave it to you tongue

Hmm, I can't argue with you on this one. I do know many people live for this sort of thing in games. (Hack and slash games are built around this obsession.)

As for a solution to this... I'm really not sure at the moment. (But I am tired as hell right now.) It seems to me if the system stays as is, then the market will be dictated by Pve'ers instead of those actually meant to be running it, industrialists. However like you say, it does seem important that pve'ers get something more than that same drop over and over and over again with no variation or surprise. But I'm not sure what that should be exactly.

Jonas:

Yeah I doubt you and I will see eye to eye on Eve's problems. I agree that eve's industrialists are indeed still useful. However it is ONLY veteran industrialists that make anuything, and those with the isk or luck to own T2 BPO's. Now in case I have not made it clear already, I'm one of these people, I have a little under half a trillion isk in my wallet, and own 7 T2 bpo's one of which is a assault ship. So I'm not looking up in envy, I'm standing way up at the top looking down on the broken system I'm a part of. And I can assure you with absolute certainty... That if I did not have T2 BPO's and invested years upon years in skilling for industry. That I would in fact be making more via running missions/plexes (aka PVE) than I would making stuff. At this point in eve... Players don't go industry because it's profitable, they do it because it sounds fun until they find it's not a hill to climb, but rather a vertical cliff will a overhang.

Now I want to state, that even if the current system remains EXACTLY the same. Industry will NOT die in perpetuum. As named goodies only make up 1/3 of the market. You still have all the bots themselves and all the ammo currently being made by industrialists, and industrialists alone. So no, it won't be the end of the game. (as long as named variants of these don't come along and put a nail in the coffin.) But it's human nature to have the "best" things. And I'm afraid people WILL make named items the MUST HAVE. Look at "ANY" MMO in the world. It's all about getting the "best" gear. Hardly anything else matters. This is not my opinion this time, this is a well known fact, backed up with so much evidence it's set in stone by god practically.

With that all said, you are correct on your last statement, either way it's done, if made by industrialists, or looted by pve'ers... Named loot will indeed become "The norm." For both pve and pvp. There is no way whatsoever to change this. People will always strive for the best stuff in the game. My solution is not to change this fact, but rather to keep the best stuff in the hands of those who have dedicated there time to "making" the "best stuff".

This may sound like me being greedy, but I think if there should be a industrialist class/character/profession. Shouldn't it be the one making what everyone is using?

If it were upto me, I'd just scrap named loot completely. And have just the basic stuff. But then as Angel of Death pointed out, that leaves what exactly for loot? If it's standard loot (Even damaged) There we are right back at square one.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Blackomen wrote:

Jonas:

Yeah I doubt you and I will see eye to eye on Eve's problems. I agree that eve's industrialists are indeed still useful. However it is ONLY veteran industrialists that make anuything, and those with the isk or luck to own T2 BPO's. Now in case I have not made it clear already, I'm one of these people, I have a little under half a trillion isk in my wallet, and own 7 T2 bpo's one of which is a assault ship. So I'm not looking up in envy, I'm standing way up at the top looking down on the broken system I'm a part of. And I can assure you with absolute certainty... That if I did not have T2 BPO's and invested years upon years in skilling for industry. That I would in fact be making more via running missions/plexes (aka PVE) than I would making stuff. At this point in eve... Players don't go industry because it's profitable, they do it because it sounds fun until they find it's not a hill to climb, but rather a vertical cliff will a overhang.

Now I want to state, that even if the current system remains EXACTLY the same. Industry will NOT die in perpetuum. As named goodies only make up 1/3 of the market. You still have all the bots themselves and all the ammo currently being made by industrialists, and industrialists alone. So no, it won't be the end of the game. (as long as named variants of these don't come along and put a nail in the coffin.) But it's human nature to have the "best" things. And I'm afraid people WILL make named items the MUST HAVE. Look at "ANY" MMO in the world. It's all about getting the "best" gear. Hardly anything else matters. This is not my opinion this time, this is a well known fact, backed up with so much evidence it's set in stone by god practically.

Here's a perspective of someone who has climbed that hill. (And yes, it is just a hill.) Play smarter. That's what industrial and market trading are all about. If the world was all about getting into a technology the day it started, no new companies would ever enter into markets that other companies have started. The fact is, there is always a new market and old companies lose touch with certain price points. In EVE, just going by invention nets me profits in a few hundred million every month. I have plenty of other time to do other things like PvP, wormholing (though not as much if I want to keep up with production), mission running, mining, whatever floats my boat for the day. This extra money goes right back into production and bpo ownership. It's all a matter of willingness to do the work and not whine because someone with trillions appears to be dominating the market in one region. At this point, if I wasn't using EVE's PLEX service, I'd probably have enough to own all the capital bpos except the eight supercaps. Part of the problem in EVE with starting industrial characters is just simply the skills required to be competitive in the market in almost any region. Another part is the cost of BPO ownership: buying, research and safe storage of the investment.

With that being said, this is IN a current game with ridiculous amounts of loot drops. Did I do it with pure t1 production? No. I had to bide my time until I could afford a few ship bpos, get some research skills going for t2 invention and production, etc. I did find a few niche items I could produce relatively cheap and they made me a little money, but nothing compared to what I can make after getting my skills up in other areas.

Now, how does that translate over to here? I'm not quite sure yet. We don't have enough data available to us about what loot drops are going to be like in live. Will it just be a few different modules that drop frequently (like the weapons or armor reps)? Will the drops become more spaced out after missions are added? It's hard to say at this point. We just need to watch for the balance in this so it doesn't get out of hand and make mining completely pointless (and a good portion of the construction side of things).

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Fumen wrote:

Here's a perspective of someone who has climbed that hill. (And yes, it is just a hill.) Play smarter. That's what industrial and market trading are all about. If the world was all about getting into a technology the day it started, no new companies would ever enter into markets that other companies have started. The fact is, there is always a new market and old companies lose touch with certain price points. In EVE, just going by invention nets me profits in a few hundred million every month. I have plenty of other time to do other things like PvP, wormholing (though not as much if I want to keep up with production), mission running, mining, whatever floats my boat for the day. This extra money goes right back into production and bpo ownership. It's all a matter of willingness to do the work and not whine because someone with trillions appears to be dominating the market in one region. At this point, if I wasn't using EVE's PLEX service, I'd probably have enough to own all the capital bpos except the eight supercaps. Part of the problem in EVE with starting industrial characters is just simply the skills required to be competitive in the market in almost any region. Another part is the cost of BPO ownership: buying, research and safe storage of the investment.

With that being said, this is IN a current game with ridiculous amounts of loot drops. Did I do it with pure t1 production? No. I had to bide my time until I could afford a few ship bpos, get some research skills going for t2 invention and production, etc. I did find a few niche items I could produce relatively cheap and they made me a little money, but nothing compared to what I can make after getting my skills up in other areas.

Now, how does that translate over to here? I'm not quite sure yet. We don't have enough data available to us about what loot drops are going to be like in live. Will it just be a few different modules that drop frequently (like the weapons or armor reps)? Will the drops become more spaced out after missions are added? It's hard to say at this point. We just need to watch for the balance in this so it doesn't get out of hand and make mining completely pointless (and a good portion of the construction side of things).

Ok I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on all eve related matters, we are indeed on completely opposite ends of that discussion. And we are never going to convince the other that we are right.

So on the topic of purely perpetuum, I agree that the info of how they currently intend to balance drops and such in live is non-existant. However thats what we are discussing here, how said balance "should" be at launch. Balancing a game "after" launch is guaranteed to kill off a lot of your potential playerbase.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Blackomen wrote:

So on the topic of purely perpetuum, I agree that the info of how they currently intend to balance drops and such in live is non-existant. However thats what we are discussing here, how said balance "should" be at launch. Balancing a game "after" launch is guaranteed to kill off a lot of your potential playerbase.


Completely agree here. This is one of those economic design decisions that need to be made even before a major open public beta, in my opinion.

What modules are currently dropping? I know that most everything I do see drop drops in such quantities I'm selling or recycling 99% of it. What I find: small autocannons, lasers, missile launchers, mass reducers, armor reps, chassis scanners, miners.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Fumen wrote:
Blackomen wrote:

So on the topic of purely perpetuum, I agree that the info of how they currently intend to balance drops and such in live is non-existant. However thats what we are discussing here, how said balance "should" be at launch. Balancing a game "after" launch is guaranteed to kill off a lot of your potential playerbase.


Completely agree here. This is one of those economic design decisions that need to be made even before a major open public beta, in my opinion.

What modules are currently dropping? I know that most everything I do see drop drops in such quantities I'm selling or recycling 99% of it. What I find: small autocannons, lasers, missile launchers, mass reducers, armor reps, chassis scanners, miners.

One thing - named drops seem more common - possibly a little *too* common, as the size of the drones goes up. Earlier, when our group was killing somewhere around 6 mech-sized drones, there were two named drops - that's a high enough rate that there might be issues.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

After reading through this thread, I have to cast my vote to the side of "Player Made" items being the best quality.  However these items should be rightfully expensive, require rare/more materials to create, and have longer manufacture times. 

Rare drops from NPCs is good but I think mechanics which affect economey should always be player driven.  I have yet to truly explore industrial side of Perpetuum, so this comment is made from experiences in other similar games.

Just my 2 NIC,
~F

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

I didn't read it through, but thanks for summarizing it smile

We talked about a feature here before which would give you a small chance to get a named item after manufacturing from a standard license. The chance would be modified by extensions, but still would be small.

Now, we could make it so the most rare/best named items could be only created via this system, and completely remove these from NPC drops, but they would still drop the not-so-rare named items. This way there could be something for both combat and industrial players.
Of course the named NPC drops would still need to be rare enough as to not jeopardize the standard item market, and avoid the situation where industrialists would only go for the named ones and the standard ones would be just "waste", because noone buys them.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I didn't read it through, but thanks for summarizing it smile

We talked about a feature here before which would give you a small chance to get a named item after manufacturing from a standard license. The chance would be modified by extensions, but still would be small.

Now, we could make it so the most rare/best named items could be only created via this system, and completely remove these from NPC drops, but they would still drop the not-so-rare named items. This way there could be something for both combat and industrial players.
Of course the named NPC drops would still need to be rare enough as to not jeopardize the standard item market, and avoid the situation where industrialists would only go for the named ones and the standard ones would be just "waste", because noone buys them.

Yeah I remember when this system was in, it was causing the stuck manufacturing bug as I recall. And yes, I really like this idea. Leaves manufacturers as the source for the best stuff, while still giving mission runners/ratters something to look forward to in loot drops.

[img]http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5309/bannerma.jpg[/img]

Last edited by Blackomen (2009-11-11 01:00:57)

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

I really like the idea of being able to "proc" that has been mentioned.  In this setting it would be quite something.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

why not add the odd rare spray paint can of color to change the color of one's 'bot. Maybe even tiger stripes? tongue -V

Good discussion and as a former industrialist from that other game I do like the best gear comming from the Player Manufactures but also give the PvE a good drop as well but not quite as good but maybe a cooler look? -V

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

As it is now.. If I want to go farm five stars and get tons of best name stuff... then I just go do it. No problem there.

But, take into account that a live world will be more dangerous, bigger, harder just to get to those 5 stars, never mind farm them for an hour and get home alive cargo intact.

There will really only be a handful of corps that will be able to do it. And much much more demand with a larger playerbase. It should even out, and still make production viable.

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Just a theory and maybe viable maybe not could all basic module that do drop that are damaged that when recycled they would give a component that cannot be mined or found other than by recycling - however this 1 and only one component for arguement sake "broken biscuits" lol (whatever anyway before i digress)

1) Would always be needed in building process
2) only comes from basic/standard module drops

This would then give looters pve something to recycle that industrialists need either go get it themselves or primarily to buy.

Basic modules will always be a first choice or atleast a make do for new player but soon they become obsolete - giving them a recoverable (ore/component) will or i would hope give something to be even if not immense but a commodity of thier own.

Any thoughts.?

Re: A simple solution to all recycling/mining/manufacturing issues.

Sypfer wrote:

Just a theory and maybe viable maybe not could all basic module that do drop that are damaged that when recycled they would give a component that cannot be mined or found other than by recycling - however this 1 and only one component for arguement sake "broken biscuits" lol (whatever anyway before i digress)

1) Would always be needed in building process
2) only comes from basic/standard module drops

This would then give looters pve something to recycle that industrialists need either go get it themselves or primarily to buy.

Basic modules will always be a first choice or atleast a make do for new player but soon they become obsolete - giving them a recoverable (ore/component) will or i would hope give something to be even if not immense but a commodity of thier own.

Any thoughts.?

So what you propose to do is to take a system out of balance (PvE droning being greater for component farming than mining) and add in something else that won't be able to be gotten by miners, thus adding even more imbalance? If I'm seeing your description wrong, please give a better description of what you're thinking of.