Topic: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

NA has been killing ppl at ICS alpha. but enough of you in arkhes have gotten together and guess what? you can kill higher lvl stuff if you focus fire. points not withstanding and skills not withstanding you can take out very big bots if you simply grow a pair of balls and actually fight together. i finally got a wasp popped by a never ending stream of arkhes pouring out of the terminal. its was great fun and funny as hell. but it does prove my point, focus fire with enough ppl will get anybody down. saw it happen against a mech as well (thankfully it wasn't one of ours) so get out there and focus up and kill all the stuff you are afraid of.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Yeah that is completely fair. Have to graveyard zerg you to kill one of you. What were they thinking complaining about being 240k EP behind you?
Perpetuum better learn what competitive balance means and quick. Let me say it again cmpetitive balance.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Lege wrote:

Yeah that is completely fair. Have to graveyard zerg you to kill one of you. What were they thinking complaining about being 240k EP behind you?
Perpetuum better learn what competitive balance means and quick. Let me say it again cmpetitive balance.

first off, fairness is a myth.

secondly, if you can down an assault or mech with focus fire wouldnt that in of itself be proof that there is a competitive balance? its costs nothing for an arkhe and the same cannot be said for a mech. t4 fittings on top of that is another astronomical expense. and if a total of 15-20 arkhes in throw away gear can down one then that is balanced

Are you saying that unless EVERYBODY has the same amount of points then you wont ever pvp? time progression sandbox games reward the earliest players so if you are going to cry about something thats small like a 240k points difference then please do not buy this game. think in terms of years and the point spreads that will occur over that amount of time. guess you cried alot in stEVE too. You can still be competitive with teamwork. but to think that a starter bot is competitive 1v1 against somebody who has the points and equipment and more importantly put in the time to have those things then you need a new game. The mechanics are basically sound in the game as it is now.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

In case you want to see what the deaths were like from that fight: http://content.perpetuum-online.com/fee … ph_600.png

Sounds like it was fun.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

I'm not pvping against people with 240k more EP than me. Perpetuum is going to hit a wall in a few months and they won't recover unless they are more newb friendly. I'm not saying a well organized guild of 50 couldn't come into the game in half a year and completely take over with a huge EP disadvantage. I'm talking about the guy with a few friends just looking for a fun mech game to play, they aren't going to stick around when them and their buddies are blown up by one guy who has been here since pre-release. I've been at both ends of the pvp food chain in other games. Neither one is really that fun to me anymore. When everyone is tightly grouped, it's a lot more interesting. I was considering EVE a year or so ago and chose not to play it for a similar reason.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Old players spend more EP on little 3% upgrades than a new player does for the first 5 ranks of any skill. There is no huge disadvantage in the degree your talking about.


As for your second point. A well orgainzed group of any type will be very good at what they have chosen to do.

I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. -Socrates

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

The problem is that the type of game where time investment does not matter is completely different from eve or perpetuum or any popular MMO.  Both of these games have a cap where diminishing returns begins to take effect and allows new players who specialize to compete, but a 1 week old noob is never going to stand a chance against a veteran player 1v1 and I don't think most would want it to be that way.

Arena style games and first person shooters are the only games I can think of that fit your criteria.  Most MMO games don't let you interact with high level players until you've put a significant amount of time in to level yourself, sandbox games give you the option to compete with them if you have sufficient numbers and tactics which is a big plus over any themepark mmo.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

If you think a combat agent with all 8s is even close to a combat agent with all 5s your mistaken. The 8's guy will win 98% of the time.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

A lot of older players start to diversify their extensions a LOT.  They will put points into electronic warfare so they can do that stuff, put more points into stuff like armor points which wont change a fight too much, and stuff like lower VAT so they make a bit more money.

Coming into this game with a large EP disparity of M2S we were still able to group up and go to beta and kill stuff.   I never felt like we were screwed because we were smart and didnt get ourselves into situations we couldnt handle.

Sure, theres not an EP cap, but the fact the skills get so expensive and so many things to spend it on that you catch up a lot faster than you'd think when you're specializing into one thing like combat dps.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Lege wrote:

I was considering EVE a year or so ago and chose not to play it for a similar reason.

yeah time based progression is most likely not for you.

As for that kill chart, thats awesome. And yes it was tons of fun and actually very informative as well. its good to know that the difference between starter bots and more advanced ones are in terms of taking out other ppl in pvp. With what we saw today we can actually start reworking theories on how we can go about pvp for the first month of live without a huge expense in bots/time/mats. We've known for quite a while how many lights it will typically take to kill assaults and mechs but getting the bottom end of the performance scale is nice to have

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

I'm fine with time based progression, if I'm starting with everyone else. I'm saying the game is going to have problems down the road when it takes newbs 6 months to get competitive. If I actually stay with this game for 2 years, I'll be one of those guys that sticks to pure combat and gets to 10s.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

I agree DEVS better increase starting EP for new players down the road.  Which I am certain they will.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

I've seen a solution (or alleviation) for that problem in a browser game many years ago. There you had time-based advancement skills, comparable to extensions in this game. The more people had trained one certain skill, or the level of one skill, the easier and faster it was to train for everyone else in the game. Some of the basic skills had like 190% training speed (means the newb was training almost double as fast as the people back at the beginning of the game), as many had completed them, other skills only 110% and so on. This way the vets still remained on top, but the newcomers had it easier and faster to catch up to some extent.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Lege wrote:

If you think a combat agent with all 8s is even close to a combat agent with all 5s your mistaken. The 8's guy will win 98% of the time.

whats the difference between 5 and 8? 3 points? 9%? How does 9% mean you'll win 98% of the time? 

Its actaully much easier in perp for lowbies to compete in end game pvp then the standard mmo.  Look at games like WoW or warhammer, a character that just hit level cap will still be insta killed because of raid/pvp gear progression. 

Its far far easier to catch up in eve or perp then it is in any leveling based mmo. 

Buts its deceptive, on paper its easy to think its harder in these types of games because of the time based system, but in reality it doesn't work out that way.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Lege wrote:

I'm fine with time based progression, if I'm starting with everyone else. I'm saying the game is going to have problems down the road when it takes newbs 6 months to get competitive. If I actually stay with this game for 2 years, I'll be one of those guys that sticks to pure combat and gets to 10s.

I started eve 5 or 6 years late.  I was playing with the big boys in end game pvp shortly after 1 month.  I was even able to contribute and help! I didn't insta die either.

If you want to solo gank people, yes, you'll have issues for awhile. But as part of a team, it doesn't take much at all.  It helps that larger weapons don't do so well against smaller bots.

someone with all 5's vs someone with all 10's is about 15% difference in power.  Money is more important. Being able to bring in expensive mechs and parts is a huge deal.  If your smart about it, you can get rich at any point.

money > ep.  Its a money game.  Not a level game.  There's nothing stopping you from making money when your low on ep.  ep helps, but its not required.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

9% at everything. 9% times #ofextensions. They are multiplicative.
Let's do some simple math, reality will vary of course.
Ok person A 5 pts in all extensions, person B 8 pts in all extensions
The bonuses vary between 1% and 5% per extension point, but to keep the math simple we will use 3%
Also for simplicity we will assume they are in the same mech with the same gear.
For one extension relevant to a fight.
roughly a 46% chance vs 54% chance.
But there are roughly 20 extensions relevant to a fight.
roughly a 2% chance vs 98% chance, this is only if they close
And that isn't even calculating the difference in gear there would likely be.
Basically you have no chance against a mech that:
locks on to you faster
locks on to you farther away
shoots farther
hits significantly harder
hits more accurately
has more hp
has more gear choices
has a speed advantage
has higher accumulator regen
If person B can keep at the right range (the difference in firing range), they will kill and never be hit.

You can be competitive in WoW pvp in 2 months. One month to level up plus one month honor grinding and raiding.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

I can say with absolute certainty that a 2 month old combat agent will be more than welcome in a beta isle pvp group. Is he going to be able to 1v1 an agent with 6 months more ep than him? Probably not, unless the fittings play into his favour dramatically, but if thats what you want from the game I think you are dreaming.

What you are asking for is the removal of the rpg element of the game, which i have to tell you is the main reason people play mmorpgs rather than shooters, which are better for pure fragging and skilled play.

My suggestion is if you don't like the fundamentals of mmorpg gameplay, stick to shooters or SC2 (excellent game).

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

It wont take you 6 months to get pvp viable.  You can make a difference in an assault bot or e-war bot.  Mechs only take a couple months to pilot well, which can do a lot in any fight.

Like I said, after a couple months or less in game, I was already going out in small groups HUNTING M2S who had much more EP by far on average.  I knew that we could easily be over whelmed if they came in force, but we were confident we'd find 1 or 2 people scouting and be able to take them out then GTFO before a force built up.


And Lege you have things completely wrong.  3 levels is 9% in every area, it does not multiply, and certainly doesnt affect it like a % swing in chance to win the fight.  1 skill 3 levels higher isnt a 9% power gain, as that 1 skill is is only 1 of many, and that single 9% increase only amounts to about 1% or less of gained power.   Also you are talking about a 1v1 equal gear equal footing encounter, which is just completely stupid to compare.  Group combat is what this is about, and the difference of having that 1 mech there, even with 3 levels less across the board than one of the opponents mechs, and not having it is HUGE.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Everyone got it pretty much covered. In perpetuum, as in that other game:

(general player skill at playing) + (teamplay capability) >> EP


Lege, you didn't start EvE, and you'll probably not play perpetuum because you're thinking wrong. You're thinking with the mindset of a theme park (ie. wow) player, which tends to want everything to be 1 vs 1 balanced and straightforward.

Perpetuum isn't about straight thinking, it's about transversal thinking, because it offers you the choice of a richer gameplay system than any theme park can offer. "How can I overcome my enemy ?" outsmart him if you can't outnumber or outgun him. There's always a way, even moreso in Perpetuum.

Every long time pvper of that other game will tell you the same: it's not about the numbers, it's about the knowledge of the game. After 4 years pvping there, I was able to wreck havoc in a simple frigate or destroyer against better equipped guys. Did the numbers help ? of course, but success came mainly because you knew how to use them properly.


That's what make sandbox games interesting. Older players will always have an advantage in numbers or in cash (as in every game allowing for this kind of progression), but at least here you got a world of possibilities.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

I'm just saying the diffence between a newb and a 6 month character is huge. The difference between a 2 month and 8 month is still large. It's not til you get to the 6 month/12 month gap that it's even close. As the game goes on and people start having huge EP pools, the newbs are going to get stommped into the ground. Meaning the game is very short sighted and isn't seeing the big picture. Time based progression is horribly flawed at it's core. Sure it has the bonus of taking out a grind, but the serious disadvantage of alienating new players to the point the game won't grow. Let's say there are 400 accounts they sold, 100 are alts. In a year only 100 of those people are still playing. Those that are left are obscenely stronger than any new player causing more people to leave. The model doesn't work.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Lege wrote:

I'm just saying the diffence between a newb and a 6 month character is huge. The difference between a 2 month and 8 month is still large. It's not til you get to the 6 month/12 month gap that it's even close. As the game goes on and people start having huge EP pools, the newbs are going to get stommped into the ground. Meaning the game is very short sighted and isn't seeing the big picture. Time based progression is horribly flawed at it's core. Sure it has the bonus of taking out a grind, but the serious disadvantage of alienating new players to the point the game won't grow. Let's say there are 400 accounts they sold, 100 are alts. In a year only 100 of those people are still playing. Those that are left are obscenely stronger than any new player causing more people to leave. The model doesn't work.

Yeah, EvE obviously failed miserably with that kind of model.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Lege wrote:

I'm just saying the diffence between a newb and a 6 month character is huge. The difference between a 2 month and 8 month is still large. It's not til you get to the 6 month/12 month gap that it's even close. As the game goes on and people start having huge EP pools, the newbs are going to get stommped into the ground. Meaning the game is very short sighted and isn't seeing the big picture. Time based progression is horribly flawed at it's core. Sure it has the bonus of taking out a grind, but the serious disadvantage of alienating new players to the point the game won't grow. Let's say there are 400 accounts they sold, 100 are alts. In a year only 100 of those people are still playing. Those that are left are obscenely stronger than any new player causing more people to leave. The model doesn't work.

I've played as a 2 month character against 8 month characters and I did just fine.  Do you have some crazy made up statistic to refute my claim?

The high level players will naturally separate themselves from the new players unless the new players throw themselves at the old players.  It wont be worth their time to go hunting in low level areas to "stomp" noobs.  When the game matures there will be more areas opened up so the veteran corps will venture further out for more power and money, leaving the other islands (Beta) to the newer players and corps.

You obviously havnt played this game very long, or with a corp that actually knows what they're doing.  Please, kindly, sit down and shut up.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Lege wrote:

9% at everything. 9% times #ofextensions. They are multiplicative.
Let's do some simple math, reality will vary of course.
Ok person A 5 pts in all extensions, person B 8 pts in all extensions
The bonuses vary between 1% and 5% per extension point, but to keep the math simple we will use 3%
Also for simplicity we will assume they are in the same mech with the same gear.
For one extension relevant to a fight.
roughly a 46% chance vs 54% chance.
But there are roughly 20 extensions relevant to a fight.
roughly a 2% chance vs 98% chance, this is only if they close
And that isn't even calculating the difference in gear there would likely be.
Basically you have no chance against a mech that:
locks on to you faster
locks on to you farther away
shoots farther
hits significantly harder
hits more accurately
has more hp
has more gear choices
has a speed advantage
has higher accumulator regen
If person B can keep at the right range (the difference in firing range), they will kill and never be hit.

You can be competitive in WoW pvp in 2 months. One month to level up plus one month honor grinding and raiding.

thats not how math works.

If we look at 10 extensions and your 10% better at each extension, your 10% better.  if your 10% better at 9 of them and 9% better on the last one, your 9.9% better. 

being 10% better on all 10 aspects would not make you 100% better.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Also lege, your too caught up in 1v1 balance.  Thats for first person shooters and fighting games like STREETFIGHTER(its so awesome it needs to be in caps).  Rpg's generaly are about team vs team balance, like in perp. 

the issue is not whether or not you can beat an old vet as a noob, the issue is, can you contribute enough to the team as a noob to be useful.

Re: for those of you who cry "you have more points than us"

Hadouken wrote:

can you contribute enough to the team as a noob to be useful.

I will answer this with:


YES!!!!!