Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Realism much?

There are roughly 500 players now with half of them being friggin newbs and you would like to see flourish a market similar to 50k or more players? The best you can do is see if things work but extensively testing market dynamics is impossible.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

This is not a valid argument point. Industrialist / combatants are still divided in parts.

It is not 100% of 500 are combatants.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

The whole thread is bollocks anyway..its Beta for gods sake,, we are here by the grace of god just to test, they can change it anyway they want.. well till we start paying that is.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Well I've been checking in randomly to see what's actually happened with assault and greater mechs and wow... still nothing for sale... So yeah... where exactly are those industrialists just waiting for this chance? I see offers up for assault mechs twice what the old price on market was and no one fills them... Doesn't matter which assault mech... during my random logins I've found 1 mech for sale, and oddly it wasn't even for a mech used by the faction at the station I'm at...

So... 2 weeks almost now and still it's a dead market. How was this a good idea again...?

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Umm Shadey, contact me in game, if you need a Heavy mech, I can hook you up with 1 or 10. If you got the cash to pay of course. As for mechs, there are plenty of dealers in the game. Use some inititive and contact one.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

it shows that those who can sell robots now, prefer to sell it on the black market (direct trade) to avoide Tax-losses.
Go to the Trade-channel and ask for a Bot wink. That Channel was a dead place before, and now, its pretty active.

Sidenote:
I dont know if they realise that direct trade for much higher prices then the NPC price slowers the PvP initiative of newer player even more.

A phrase i have read many times on Help channel:
"don't risk what you cant afford to lose"

1. assault bots for 2-3 times the npc price sold via direct trade
2. Insurance is based on sold Robots via Market for the last 3 Month
3. if you lose your overpriced Robot, the insurance will pay you only a mere fraction of the price.

So this experiment shows, if noone is using the market to trade robots, the insurance system doesn't work. I dont know how this scales up when the game releases with more player.

“The truth is balance. However the opposite of truth, which is unbalance, may not be a lie.”
(Susan Sontag)
Forum Moderator

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

GM Kami wrote:

Sidenote:
I dont know if they realise that direct trade for much higher prices then the NPC price slowers the PvP initiative of newer player even more.

A phrase i have read many times on Help channel:
"don't risk what you cant afford to lose"

Later on when there will be structures and things will depend even more on market and industry, then you will understand why this kind of behaviour is one of the fine tactics to dry your enemy thus preventing them to go into battle *ding ding* wink

GM Kami wrote:

1. assault bots for 2-3 times the npc price sold via direct trade
2. Insurance is based on sold Robots via Market for the last 3 Month
3. if you lose your overpriced Robot, the insurance will pay you only a mere fraction of the price.

I sell for 4-5 times the npc prices successfully. People will adapt to the new prices quickly since they will have to learn to farm efficiently and have to put more risk while being more efficient. This on the other side fires the PvP. *ding ding* ;-)

EVERYONE turns into a china farmer when he wants to have something.
yarr

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

GM Kami wrote:

it shows that those who can sell robots now, prefer to sell it on the black market (direct trade) to avoide Tax-losses.

They are not avoiding tax loses but competition... roll

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

You need to realize that the old NPC prices were simply wrong.

I run my assault CT starting at 70% and running until its 35% with efficiency skills 5/5/2.

There are 3 parts to build cost ...

1) Cost of minerals
2) Fixed NPC cost
3) Cost to replace the CT

#3 is a big deal! At the old NPC seed of 1.5 million, if you used a level 7 decoder your CT cost 2.5 million.  With my skills that is good for about 14-16 bots, so each bot 'costs' 156k towards the next CT.

#1 costs around 700-950k
#2 costs around 150k
#3 costs 160k

Add it up, you get 1 million at the cheapest, 1.26 million at the most expensive.  Factor in 8-10% sales tax, and the zero profit price is right around 1.2 - 1.4 million.  This assumes that your mineral prices don't change either for the entire lifespan of the CT!

So of course it's only natural that the price of the bots has risen.  After you dropped the seed, the price of HDT has slowly risen from 51 NIC to 60 NIC and its only a matter of time before the others creep up.  At the current market price of 3.5 million (so you take home 3.2), it costs around 1.4 to 1.9 million to make depending at what stage you are in your CT.  I can build 2 bots in 24 hours, so my assault CT generate 3-4 million NIC profit a day - something I would consider worthwhile.

Basically - the prices being charged now are reflective of what it actually costs to make the item, with the desire to make some profit from it.

I can show you the spreadsheet's if you like - the prices for light bots, light miners, slug/cell ammo, and mining charge ammo is also going to spike 50-100% once you drop those seeds.  This is concerning to me - you'll be asking newbs to grind to 700k NIC just to buy a light bot.

Last edited by Darin Raltin (2010-08-10 17:48:40)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:
GM Kami wrote:

it shows that those who can sell robots now, prefer to sell it on the black market (direct trade) to avoide Tax-losses.

They are not avoiding tax loses but competition... roll


We never had someone on the server who could compete with us and this will stay for a looooong loooooooooooong tme. Blackomen is a sack of gold having that much NIC that he could buy china with it.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Darin Raltin wrote:

You need to realize that the old NPC prices were simply wrong.

I run my assault CT starting at 70% and running until its 35% with efficiency skills 5/5/2.

There are 3 parts to build cost ...

1) Cost of minerals
2) Fixed NPC cost
3) Cost to replace the CT

#3 is a big deal! At the old NPC seed of 1.5 million, if you used a level 7 decoder your CT cost 2.5 million.  With my skills that is good for about 14-16 bots, so each bot 'costs' 156k towards the next CT.

#1 costs around 700-950k
#2 costs around 150k
#3 costs 160k

Add it up, you get 1 million at the cheapest, 1.26 million at the most expensive.  Factor in 8-10% sales tax, and the zero profit price is right around 1.2 - 1.4 million.  This assumes that your mineral prices don't change either for the entire lifespan of the CT!

So of course it's only natural that the price of the bots has risen.  After you dropped the seed, the price of HDT has slowly risen from 51 NIC to 60 NIC and its only a matter of time before the others creep up.  At the current market price of 3.5 million (so you take home 3.2), it costs around 1.4 to 1.9 million to make depending at what stage you are in your CT.  I can build 2 bots in 24 hours, so my assault CT generate 3-4 million NIC profit a day - something I would consider worthwhile.

Basically - the prices being charged now are reflective of what it actually costs to make the item, with the desire to make some profit from it.

I can show you the spreadsheet's if you like - the prices for light bots, light miners, slug/cell ammo, and mining charge ammo is also going to spike 50-100% once you drop those seeds.  This is concerning to me - you'll be asking newbs to grind to 700k NIC just to buy a light bot.

Just quick remarks:

1) Your production extensions are low. You cannot balance the game about anything than 100% efficiency.

2) You count the price for CT from NPC price which is incorrect.

3) No Finance extensions? Seriously..


So with all working and perfect extensions, I would say your price would be aiming at 300k below current NPC price at worst.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

I see people in the trade channel selling bots for virtually the same prices as what the NPC seeds were +/- 20%. Who's the fool there, the people not buying them or the people selling them...

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

So with all working and perfect extensions, I would say your price would be aiming at 300k below current NPC price at worst.

lulz <- this is the most constructive feedback you can get for this statement.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

LatscherX wrote:

lulz <- this is the most constructive feedback you can get for this statement.

It is funny how I hit the 20% Styx was stating, isn't it?

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:
LatscherX wrote:

lulz <- this is the most constructive feedback you can get for this statement.

It is funny how I hit the 20% Styx was stating, isn't it?


Yes, it is because its cheap like Vietnam! All the NPC prices were artifically calculated from the ressources they need to be produced completely ignoring factors like time consumption, current availability. Market means competition and is also a tool of warfare. Not this kinky stuff you get taught at school like 'QQ regulates itself QQ'. So let say it this way: M2s rules the market by hostile takeover  /thread.

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-08-10 18:30:51)

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

LatscherX wrote:

Later on when there will be structures and things will depend even more on market and industry, then you will understand why this kind of behaviour is one of the fine tactics to dry your enemy thus preventing them to go into battle *ding ding* wink

Didn't know that M2s is that twisted in mind - all over the forums there are the calls for "more PvP"... and then your tactic is to "preventing them to go into battle"

isnt that... counterproductive?

“The truth is balance. However the opposite of truth, which is unbalance, may not be a lie.”
(Susan Sontag)
Forum Moderator

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

LatscherX wrote:

Yes, it is because its cheap like Vietnam!

And you being the expert on cheap.

Zing!

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

GM Kami wrote:
LatscherX wrote:

Later on when there will be structures and things will depend even more on market and industry, then you will understand why this kind of behaviour is one of the fine tactics to dry your enemy thus preventing them to go into battle *ding ding* wink

Didn't know that M2s is that twisted in mind - all over the forums there are the calls for "more PvP"... and then your tactic is to "preventing them to go into battle"

isnt that... counterproductive?


Its not twisted. People have to earn their PvP. Small tactical enjoyment is to destroy mechs on battlefield, long term strategy is to destroy the enmy as whole.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:
LatscherX wrote:

lulz <- this is the most constructive feedback you can get for this statement.

It is funny how I hit the 20% Styx was stating, isn't it?

FYI I was insinuating that the prices being set in the trade channel are too low.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

GM Kami wrote:

Didn't know that M2s is that twisted in mind - all over the forums there are the calls for "more PvP"... and then your tactic is to "preventing them to go into battle"

isnt that... counterproductive?

People had access to robots for months before this change and still didn't go into PvP on mass other than once in a blue moon therefore we're fulfilling our secondary objective, which is to grief.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Styx wrote:

FYI I was insinuating that the prices being set in the trade channel are too low.

FYI there is nothing like 'too low'!

Thanks for sharing though.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Maynard Benaui wrote:
Styx wrote:

FYI I was insinuating that the prices being set in the trade channel are too low.

FYI there is nothing like 'too low'!

Thanks for sharing though.

Of course these isn't because all the minerals you mine are free, right?

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Styx wrote:

People had access to robots for months before this change and still didn't go into PvP on mass other than once in a blue moon therefore we're fulfilling our secondary objective, which is to grief.

We already know about your agenda. You want to extend your reign of terror at all cost even when it includes wrecking this entire game.

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Can we get back to feedback on the market?
I wouldn't want to close this topic too.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Worst. Idea. Ever.

Actual situation shows that market is ineffective.
One one hand U have black market and prices on it are supposed to be "real".
It's been a while from market change but still there is no real mineral or ore sellers so if someone want to produce he/she have problem because of lack of resourses...
Also high lvl decoders (8,9,10) and epriton are only avaible on beta islands (epriton also only outside safe zones) makes mech production very hard for those on alpha islands...
bot and mech prices are way too high, but for me this is because the lack of suply and high demand and it's normal...
Now the most efficient and cheapest way to have own stuff is to make it with ur corp. My corpis doing that and we barely suffered from this change. For us change is we're more independent from the market.
This market change and lack of resources made NIC less valuable currency. Value of items gathered from ratting in NIC is way less than in minerals when used to produce mechs...