Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

This is not an english exam. Support someone's comments or disagree with them. Don't just be the grammar police.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

I am a miner, my life is hard because i need to mine huge amounts of ore and to do it i need to stay mining for hours(Actually 4 hour to make 3 million of titan ore),and doing nothing more, no hunting no kernel gathering just stay there looking at the screen and chat a little.
Seeing people trying to make the life of all miner(mine and the few others) harder, and using every excuse they can "think" to justify it's merits is discouraging.

So before trying to piss the most boring, tedious and unfunny activity (now at least) try to make somenthing more productive and help us opening the heads of the developer team with a laser mining and put some sense into it. We miners stay AFK because theres nothing more to do, unfortunatelly i am stuborn and always liked to play the most weak class in every game, so try to not make our lifes worse, you people want somenthing to shoot buy a mirror and do a favor to us.

Yes my english is a crap, the activity i choose is boring and to help it i always see people trying to make it harder and less funny to us, the always fu*** miners.

See you people in the mining field.

Obs : never again mix the Industrials with the miners we are diferrent "Classes".

>)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

I'm not trying to make it harder, just more room for active miners and ones willing to take a risk will benefit.

Hell, I could change it to raising beta yields. Does that sound more appealing to you?

This isn't about balance, but the concept of unsecured mining being profitable, and not simply the only option for epriton that it currently is.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Okay Neoxx lets do a test, come with me this weekend and lets do a mining duty like i do, 10+ hour mining looking to a fuc**** screen while talking abou buls*** if you end the day without brain damage due to boredom then welcome aboard the side of miners.

And sorry for being rude but i am an active miner, and i spend almost all my time mining and what you are asking is somenthing easy too shoot. Remember? A miner has to stay mining for hours to get a decent ammount of ore. So lets make things more interesting, let the miner use it mining tools to instant vaporyze anything that come closer? what do you say? think it helps improve the PVP aspect and turn mining more interesting. tongue

Edit : and again sorry for being rude i am not like this, but you guys like doing sugestions without considering its consequences to others. Want to solve the problem? Just put booster that use accu in exchange for speed and make mining in Beta+ islands 250% faster. then you will have tons of miner runing around with a target on his back.

>)

Last edited by Hevn (2010-08-09 20:40:00)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Hevn wrote:

Okay Neoxx lets do a test, come with me this weekend and lets do a mining duty like i do, 10+ hour mining looking to a fuc**** screen while talking abou buls*** if you end the day without brain damage due to boredom then welcome aboard the side of miners.

You seem to think that you're forced to be a miner. If this is how you feel about mining then choose a different profession. If you don't choose a different profession and continue on mining knowing full well how bad it is (in your opinion) then you've only got yourself to blame.

If enough people did stop mining because of this then the market would adjust accordingly making mining a more profitable activity due to the decreased level of supply, assuming demand stays the same if not greater considering that more people would be switching to different professions most likely leading to an increased demand for alternative bots.

Last edited by Styx (2010-08-09 21:05:42)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Hevn, whats your proposal to making mining more interactive and entertaining aside from dramatic expressions of RAGE!!

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

They are not going to change Mining yeild no matter what anyone says, they left this thread so people can voice thier opinions. had a convo with a dev about this already, the only thing that will change (no matter how many people cry) is the location of ore. When the other islands come they will be spread out accordingly. lol you miners dont have to worry unless you want high end ore and have to deal with full pvp zones while mining.

Last edited by Blackwidow (2010-08-09 22:10:42)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Styx, despite what i wrote here i like mining activities and i know how hard it is, that why i do it because it is hard. What i can't accept are other peoples sugesting to make it "HARDER" so it fit their needs. It is boring yes anyone that mines understand that. I see people QQ about miners that stays AFK but what else do you guys expect? Theres no meaning on staying all the time looking at a bot while it charges deplete. And i was educated to not give up because somenthing is hard. as i stated i am sorry for being rude but you people should consider how your "ideas" affects others, i assure you we miners dont get "easy rewards" while mining.
And for market adjustment if enough people leave the game closes.


Darin Raltin, again sorry for being rude i know we should try to manifest our opnions as clear as possible without being agressive. But the people i see here are in most part away from mining activities or dont have idea how it works, and yet are making sugestions that will only dificult thing for those who play as miners. And for that theres a limit how obnoxious a person can be.
Want to improve the gameplay for miners? Want us to be active while mining? Give somenthing for us to do while spending hours mining to fill the market. Mining is slow, in group it continue slows, just for more people. Minigames with some kind of reward or it will be completely ignored. Let the mining process from time to time give us some kind of module even if 99% damaged or yet a kernel. But whatever they do i just ask for then to not turn things more difficult than it already is.
And sorry for it but mining group is very little plausible, as said it take hours for 1 miner to get a decent ammount o mats so more people will take the same time for a larger ammount.

And a miner like to get things for hinself to improve hinself whitout depending on others all the time if we are to be obligated to always wander in groups then its better sell group accounts than single accounts. Will make more sense without the possibilities of choice.

Obs : Again if that offensive sorry.

>)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Even if mining yields changed, there would STILL be nothing for the miners to worry about.  I feel like everyone things that if its changed that mining on alpha will be worthless, which is false.

You will still be able to make a profit and a "living" off of alpha mining if your game is sitting nearly unattended while doing other things.  You will still get a good haul, and you dont have to worry about being chased off your spot or hunted.  You're trading ease of access with potential profit.

Sure, changing locations of minerals would be good too.  You dont have to argue with me if theres another good way to spread things out so mining on unsecured areas is worth it.

One thing I dont get is why you cant see me saying "WORTH IT".  I'm not trying to move you out there to kill you.  The fact that you could be killed makes it necessary to have a benefit high enouhg to take that risk.  I am a miner myself.  I know how boring a long session of mining can be, especially when I know nothing will stand in my way of my goal.

BUT, when I have gone out to beta islands to mine epriton,  at first I didnt know there was some in the police zones, so I mined in open territory.  We had help nearby farming mobs, and semi-scouts near the likely travel paths.  I was constantly vigilant, and it was a MUCH better mining experience than anything I had done before.

I never died, mainly because theres not much traffic out there, and also because we picked a spot that was off the beaten path enough to keep people from stumbling on us.  I knew the risk, but I also knew the reward.  Luckily, I never fell to the risk, and only got the reward.

Perpetuum needs more of this.  Whether it be higher yields on further out places or moving more minerals only on beta islands, we need SOMETHING.  Epriton just isnt enough IMO.


EDIT:  I would also like to pose a few questions because I think they apply in this case.  ( I also dont have the experience with the game, so I'm not even sure of the answer)

1.  Have you mined in stEVE?

If yes:
2.  Where is the most profitable place to mine?

Last edited by Neoxx (2010-08-09 22:30:19)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Neoxx wrote:

1.  Have you mined in stEVE?

If yes:
2.  Where is the most profitable place to mine?

1) Yep

2) The cliff notes version is "it used to function how you think it does, but now 'alpha island' residents do better than 'beta island' residents and 'charlie island' residents except in 4 ore types (out of around a dozen).

More in detail (so hopefully the devs can avoid this)

As time went on, the mineral basket recalibrated its price based on the distribution of salvaged minerals instead of mining.  They did a study that showed that the majority of minerals (except in the most common and most rare form) came from non-mining sources.

This was because newbs started with the ability to get 85-90% refines, and a 100% refine converts a module to its "components tab" exactly.  Unlike perpetuum, most producers had "99% material ratios" on everything.  Basically the value of almost everything was <10% mark up from build, and thus was <10% away from 'perfect' costs (very few mineral sinks from production, generous mineral faucet from recycling).

The ores were balanced around a set price point that existed at launch, but thanks to massive deflation (the minerals originally penned at ~250 isk is now worth 90-100) the ores that do best are the ones that avoided deflation, which ironically enough is the low end ore (titan, HDT).

Then you add on 'mining with missiles' (NPC's that drop pure minerals, and thats the only thing you can shoot) and wormholes (give 'alpha island' residents their own private 'charlie island' to play in) and you all bot destroyed mining.

--------------------------------

TL;DR - EVE screwed mining for various reasons, and the moral of the story is that a combination of providing easy access to rare minerals and substantial non-mining mineral facuets will destroy the harvesting profession.

Tthe best miner can make 11 million/hour in high sec, whereas an average high sec mission runner can make 20-30 million/hour easily - and that 11 million is better than everything except a narrow band of 0.0 rocks

Last edited by Darin Raltin (2010-08-09 23:01:28)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Neoxx, I never played that game. I played games with much worse mining/gathering system than this and others far better.

My stand here is not about moving the most valuable mats out of the save zones, i know i can mine epriton safer if i go to places far beyond the fast paths, it is about the "great ideas" to make ou lives harder. And like you said we have the boredom of mining by choice, its not about profit its not about safety, its about we can improve ourselfs without having the obligation to play with dozens of other players helping us, i am not against doing raids for mining in dangerous areas controled by others groups but making it the only option will be one of the great bad ideas i've seen so far.
I think the idea of this game was liberty to what you want. Appears to me that the only relevance for moving the mining fields out the alpha islands is to have more targets on the field. So in detriment of mining, people want to improve pvp.

And like you said 'NOW" the beta islands are like deserts so you have little risk going there, but if what i see people wanting despite what Blackwidow says happen, then you can say good bye to a lot of players that will lose the only way of "living" to a small group of players that the only purpose is making the game umplayable to others.

Besides to me every other aspect of the game are receiving improvements while mining still abandoned and that the only reason i still here arguing is to see any kind of hint if mining will continue to be ignored and every aspect of the game will be changed to full PVP.

Out of discusion i understand you point, but try to understand mine. You cant sacrifice one aspect of the game to improve other. By moving mats to others islands are a good way to populate it, shouldnt be used as last resort not, only as last option. You by being a miner can understand what can happen if things doesn't go as well as others think.

>)

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Im not sacrificing anything.  I would want to give players more options in whatever profession they seek.

Currently miners have no real ambition to do much than alpha mining.   You could say "hey, theres minerals on beta too!" but they'd just say "so what".

You will STILL BE ABLE OT MINE ON ALPHA WELL, but if you choose to take the more risky route and more pvp oriented route, you could stand to gain more.  BUT, you could also stand to lose if you dont do it properly.

With alpha mining, the floor (minimum profit) and ceiling (maximum profit) are pretty close together.  With what I'm suggesting, it would raise the ceiling and lower the floor, creating a more diverse player experience and put more control in the hands of the player and the day to day decisions they make.

If you really want to make the most you possibly can in this game, you shouldnt expect to be able to do it while sitting on your ass and not even having to pay attention to the game 90% of the time.  Unless we want to just have everyone having tons of macro miners all the time....  that sounds like a great game!

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Neoxx wrote:

Currently miners have no real ambition to do much than alpha mining.   You could say "hey, theres minerals on beta too!" but they'd just say "so what".

It is amusing you do not get the obvious, even when you type it yourself.

Current incentives are obviously not making beta islands more attractive, yet you keep pushing it the same direction even further.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Blackwidow wrote:

When the other islands come they will be spread out accordingly. lol you miners dont have to worry unless you want high end ore and have to deal with full pvp zones while mining.

Oh great, give the early birds a shortcut to riches so they can become the elite within months of going gold. Followed by years of trying to fix this. By the time the newbies figured out how to play the veterans already will be sitting on piles of mechs and tier 4 gear.

A) Don't make high-end ore exclusive for PvP zones
B) Limit quantities of high-end ore in a single spot so they won't become money printing presses
C) Quantize content with introduction so the newcomers have some time to catch up before a new stage is introduced.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Maynard Benaui wrote:
Neoxx wrote:

Currently miners have no real ambition to do much than alpha mining.   You could say "hey, theres minerals on beta too!" but they'd just say "so what".

It is amusing you do not get the obvious, even when you type it yourself.

Current incentives are obviously not making beta islands more attractive, yet you keep pushing it the same direction even further.

Maynard... instead of reading the sentences that sound nice to you, try reading the entire thread. I know you like to skip around, but unless you keep up, you really shouldn't post.

neoxx wrote:

I would want to give players more options in whatever profession they seek.

Clearly Neoxx is looking to make mining more interesting and have more incentives. He even stated a role-reversal still wouldn't have much affect 'beta had more than alpha' example.

Truth is, discuss mining, miners aggro. Discuss pvp, pvpers aggro. And yes, we know what 'current' incentives are, hence why we were discussing alternatives. just stating what already exists, and telling someone he is wrong for conceptualizing improvements, is covert trolling.

and you're doing it wrong.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Kwitch, dont anger the beast.  He has over 20 years of mmo experience under his, assumingly quite large, belt.  Beware of the epic warhammer of knowledge that is about to be dropped on your head!

If you need a place to recover and cry openly, Siddy and I have started a support group for his many helpless victims.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Kwitch wrote:

Maynard... instead of reading the sentences that sound nice to you, try reading the entire thread. I know you like to skip around, but unless you keep up, you really shouldn't post.

Objective: Bring more miners to beta islands.

Change 1: Make field containers lootable after the miner is killed.

Change 2: Once he assures, that there is even less miners on beta islands after he makes their hunting truly profitable, he suggests to nerf alpha island mining yield to make sure miners are screwed properly.

Now, you can tell me what he is actually trying to achieve and how does that make any sense.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

you are aware beta island is turning into flag for pvp only area?

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Kwitch wrote:

you are aware beta island is turning into flag for pvp only area?


No, no i was not.

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Kwitch wrote:

you are aware beta island is turning into flag for pvp only area?

Beta islands are not turning into flagged PVP areas only, only some places are.

If it is not the case, please provide a quote.

Also, you can still explain the sense behind suggested changes as you were impelled already instead of dragging the discussion into some irrelevant direction.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

I don't think that making alpha islands worse will be good and more ppl will move to beta islands...
simply there will be more whine that mining sucks and there are no bots what so ever and only we will see will be degradation of those islands and no exodus to outer islands...

i think that many of u are bored that nothing happens on beta islands and want to move miners there so u will have easy kills (pfff).
Interesting is that ecorp (m2s prob too) ale mining on alpha islands and there is whine that no one want to mine on beta... come on if ur tryin to change sth start will urself...
i'm living on beta island - mine, rat, everything and since i moved there i've neve been on alpha, so yes there is no problem in mining on beta islands, even outside safe zones, but it needs group work which i think sucks in many corps here...

try to make beta islands more interesting and better and not the other way...
nothing but whine...
if U don't have anyone to shoot at, shoot each other - this is game and games are about fun not whining...

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

when have you seen us mining last time big_smile


2 hours at the 5th star spawn covers enought minerals for ~5 heavies in loot. On top of that, you get kernels.

Why on earth anyone, that has acces to that kind of recources whuld want to mine 10 hours or more to reach the same results?

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

Siddy wrote:

when have you seen us mining last time big_smile


2 hours at the 5th star spawn covers enought minerals for ~5 heavies in loot. On top of that, you get kernels.

Why on earth anyone, that has acces to that kind of recources whuld want to mine 10 hours or more to reach the same results?

Apparently:

Neoxx wrote:

I am a miner myself.

some people in M2S are hardcore miners.

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

i wrote ecorp smile m2s probably i don't know for 100% wink
and yes i saw gambit and other ecorp players on alpha islands mining... but that's not the point, the point is why oh why u want miners so bad to shoot them... shoot each other if ur so bared... and u can say that killing miners is yarr and powah and pr0 pvp but at the near end it still lame wink

Re: Lower Mining/Harvesting Yield on Alpha

*edit* Deleted post quote. - DEV Zoom

I'm mining on beta islands. I'd venture out if I had any need to, and had the players to come with me. Call me bias, but I wouldnt mind a +extra mining on beta islands but then again, Im always there, just inside police zones as Blackoman can attest to lol  (Anna Valerious I believe?)