Re: Remove Police Towers

Gloryhole wrote:

Siddy the sandbox concept doesnt specifically mean pvp like you seem to think it does. Its an open-ended world where you gain the ability to do many things going in a non-linear direction. Essentially, you can go into more detail, but Im attempting to be brief.

You could have a sandbox that punished you heavily for pvp (so heavy that noone partook in it) and it would still be a sandbox. All because the options are available.

@Madgelo, Trolling accomplishes nothing. Addressing and refuting Maynard's points on the other hand, does. So from a outsiders perspective, you look like a spoilt brat who can not form a valid argument (although I know that is certainly not the truth).

Siddy, the truth of the matter is. You PvPers need us PvErs and we need you. You take down police zones on the beta islands, and in the current state of the game, are inviting a ghost town.

its pritty simple
PVP part of the game is a must, becuase thats what drives the economy in games like this ( Steve comes to mind)
if you would allow people to be able to manufacture anything they want without slightest risk, game would be fun for economy people for awhile, untill the inflation hits. Because PVP limited to people who are just bored or wanna do it for fun (m2S) doesnt generate enough NIC sink.
that is why you have to make PVP zones very atractive to Econemy people who would then supply PVP people to fight for the zone that provides them with riches they want to build their empire. Sandbox game isnt about getting to max level and have some Epic gear.

Imagine if Steve didnt have 0.0

Last edited by MadGelo (2010-08-09 14:17:01)

Grow up or die

Re: Remove Police Towers

Gloryhole wrote:
Siddy wrote:

Like i sed, you have Classic pixiebasher mmo standards imported in to sandbox mmo.
Statment like "You PvPers need us PvErs and we need you" is more than enought of proof that you have no clue what i am talking abut.

Ahh, picking one aspect of my argument, then bashing it with not facts, but your oppinion. You sir, are classy.

I bolded it this time so you may see it.
You take down police zones on the beta islands, and in the current state of the game, are inviting a ghost town.


There is many other resons besides police, why in current state of game beta islands culd become gost towns.

Some of the reasone are being removed, othars are allredy.

I do not see, why you chose so zelosly to ignore the reasoning in my post.
To the point you continue with trolling instead.

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Siddy wrote:

You are making the mistake to segmenting sanbox player base to "pvpers and pvers"

Infact there is only PVPers.

Like i sed, you have Classic pixiebasher mmo standards imported in to sandbox mmo.
Statment like "You PvPers need us PvErs and we need you" is more than enought of proof that you have no clue what i am talking abut.

It is difficult to understand your points if you are not able to provide valid reasoning for them.

I can only guess what you are trying to say and you are not helpful or capable to elaborate further when asked.



I assume you are trying to say that at certain game complexity, it is always PVP, being it a market competition or pew pew. Is that correct?

Re: Remove Police Towers

*edit* Sorry but this topic is not about grammar skills. - DEV Zoom

Re: Remove Police Towers

Maynard Benaui wrote:
Siddy wrote:

You are making the mistake to segmenting sanbox player base to "pvpers and pvers"

Infact there is only PVPers.

Like i sed, you have Classic pixiebasher mmo standards imported in to sandbox mmo.
Statment like "You PvPers need us PvErs and we need you" is more than enought of proof that you have no clue what i am talking abut.

It is difficult to understand your points if you are not able to provide valid reasoning for them.

I can only guess what you are trying to say and you are not helpful or capable to elaborate further when asked.



I assume you are trying to say that at certain game complexity, it is always PVP, being it a market competition or pew pew. Is that correct?


i am saying, that when you are mining more than i am, and selling stuff cheaper than i am, you are griefing me.

Why dont i get free police gankksquad to your corp hangar to prevent you from griefing me on market?

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Remove Police Towers

MadGelo wrote:

ts pritty simple
PVP part of the game is a must, becuase thats what drives the economy in games like this ( Steve comes to mind)
if you would allow people to be able to manufacture anything they want without slightest risk, game would be fun for economy people for awhile, untill the inflation hits. Because PVP limited to people who are just bored or wanna do it for fun (m2S) doesnt generate enough NIC sink.
that is why you have to make PVP zones very atractive to Econemy people who would then supply PVP people to fight for the zone that provides them with riches they want to build their empire.

Imagine if Steve didnt have 0.0

I missed the part where I disagreed with any of this. In fact, I pretty much said this when i said PvPers need PvEers and vice versa...My point is, simply taking down the police zones would do nothing for the PvPers in the current game we play. A ghost-town would ensue. How do i know this? Well on the island of Geingrosh, some of you have found me mining away safely in the police zones, I aint going outside without a decent escort. Who is going to come out on an ops in a CB, and spend 3-4 hours guarding me whilst I mine away outside of a police zone? Ergo the reasoning behind the ghost town.

Siddy if you want to argue semantics, then yes, fundamentally everyone in the game has the potential to PvP. However, by classing two groups as "pve" and "pvp" I am aiming to specifically meet the "wants and needs" of each group of player, that feel they belong more strongly to said group/s. I assure you I am not trolling one bit.

EDIT:

LatscherX wrote:

In primary school you learn that this is a paradoxon

Wtf Primary school did you go to? Jeez.

Last edited by Gloryhole (2010-08-09 14:26:07)

Re: Remove Police Towers

Gloryhole wrote:

Who is going to come out on an ops in a CB, and spend 3-4 hours guarding me whilst I mine away outside of a police zone? Ergo the reasoning behind the ghost town.

Who? The ones who want to minimize risk - ergo: risk vs reward.

Gloryhole wrote:

Wtf Primary school did you go to? Jeez.

I refuse to tell because there are people just waiting to call me elitist again lol

Re: Remove Police Towers

Siddy wrote:

i am saying, that when you are mining more than i am, and selling stuff cheaper than i am, you are griefing me.

Why dont i get free police gankksquad to your corp hangar to prevent you from griefing me on market?

I give up. I tried to be helpful but apparently you do not want to or aren't capable to state your points clearly.

Or are you just trolling and neglecting purposedly the difference between competition and grief?

If you reply in a manner that requires even more guess-work than your reply can explain, there is no point trying.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Glory, you make first mistake when you take a stance:

People with guns and use it on other players = PVPers
People with miners = PVEers
People with guns and use it on npc's = PVEers

This is 100% true in any system where PVP is 100% consensual. Guild ward is a good example of quasi MMO that has the PVE and PVP part of the game WELL serpparetd.

In sandbox however, above statment is 100% falce. This is because the nature of economy, how it works against player and what you must do to be on top of foodchain in it.

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Siddy wrote:

In sandbox type of game, you are eventually ending up competing always against another player.

You're probably too thick to understand but in a sandbox game competition is a choice. And the percentage of people not competing is larger than you might expect. Those are the people that just want to have a good time and hang out and chill (read: predominantly females).

Devs seem to acknowledge this and changed parts of the beta islands to suit this need. There will be plenty more islands to come so give the devs some slack when it comes to finetuning everything.

What I don't get is the nerve to try and boss around the devs into change the game into you see fit. 'Fix it' or  'just make it full pvp' etc. In addition you try and force people into thinking this is a PvP only game with circular reasoning. If there would be a reason it would be because it would suit your needs. So bent on winning that you'll do anything to manipulate this game in your favor.

Re: Remove Police Towers

LatscherX wrote:

Who? The ones who want to minimize risk - ergo: risk vs reward.

Dont blame me for calling a spade a spade. To be quite frank, I am sincerely hoping that there will be times in this game when 2 corps are actively fighting over a hot-spot for resources, and each corp has an army of mining bots, sitting right in the middle of a massive battle. With smaller bots running between the miners and the fighters of their own corp, boosting their armour. Each miner trying desperately to extract the precious resource, and to GTFO when the site is drained. And making sure the convoy of sequers that are transporting the goods isnt ambushed whilst on the way to the terminal to drop off the precious goods. (Ok, it sounds alot better in my head..).

Re: Remove Police Towers

Maynard Benaui wrote:



Or are you just trolling and neglecting purposedly the difference between competition and grief?

Grief is an abstract. What you may think is grief towards you, might seem like someone that is more clever bested to other.

If i shoot your miners, you scream "grief". I scream "yarr", and miner on the other island scream "more proffit!" since you are out of his competetion loop for a while.

Whar is it in this argument that escapes you?

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Faxeir wrote:

You're probably too thick to understand but in a sandbox game competition is a choice. And the percentage of people not competing is larger than you might expect. Those are the people that just want to have a good time and hang out and chill (read: predominantly females).

Yes competition is a choice. But the point is that you can't achieve high valued things by 'chilling'. Thats why perpetuum is a competetive game.

Faxeir wrote:

What I don't get is the nerve to try and boss around the devs into change the game into you see fit. 'Fix it' or  'just make it full pvp' etc. In addition you try and force people into thinking this is a PvP only game with circular reasoning. If there would be a reason it would be because it would suit your needs. So bent on winning that you'll do anything to manipulate this game in your favor.

No, you are trying to make the game fitting your needs. We just acknowledge the devs direction they want to take this game and base our argumentation on it. Ask the devs whether this is a chilling mining game or where its meant to be a competetive game. Do it!

Its not circular reasoning. You just fail to see the game concept. You and this Maynard guy are trying to refuse the game concept and build on your own argumentational base. So you both ignore the premise you are talking about. The premise is the game concept and the dev's direction which is thought to be a competetive game.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Faxeir wrote:
Siddy wrote:

In sandbox type of game, you are eventually ending up competing always against another player.

You're probably too thick to understand but in a sandbox game competition is a choice. And the percentage of people not competing is larger than you might expect. Those are the people that just want to have a good time and hang out and chill (read: predominantly females).

Devs seem to acknowledge this and changed parts of the beta islands to suit this need. There will be plenty more islands to come so give the devs some slack when it comes to finetuning everything.

What I don't get is the nerve to try and boss around the devs into change the game into you see fit. 'Fix it' or  'just make it full pvp' etc. In addition you try and force people into thinking this is a PvP only game with circular reasoning. If there would be a reason it would be because it would suit your needs. So bent on winning that you'll do anything to manipulate this game in your favor.

There are games that are far far beter off in that, than perpetuum.

To perpetuum compeet against WoW or HKO is down right stupid.

Can we please stop the "casual gamers" strawman arguments, please?

What we are trying to do, is to iron out the final conept of how pretection shuld whork, and how to prevent unwanted explotation of FREE OF CHARGE preotection system in plases where it is clearly having adverse effect on game economy.

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Siddy wrote:

Glory, you make first mistake when you take a stance:

People with guns and use it on other players = PVPers
People with miners = PVEers
People with guns and use it on npc's = PVEers

This is 100% true in any system where PVP is 100% consensual. Guild ward is a good example of quasi MMO that has the PVE and PVP part of the game WELL serpparetd.

In sandbox however, above statment is 100% falce. This is because the nature of economy, how it works against player and what you must do to be on top of foodchain in it.

I give up. I tried to be helpful but apparently you do not want to or aren't capable to state your points clearly.

This is how im feeling too. I'll give it one more attempt to see if it sinks in. Someone who argues semantics and not in the problem at hand is a waste of time to deal with...Ill bold the parts to try and help though Siddy.

Glory wrote:

Siddy if you want to argue semantics, then yes, fundamentally everyone in the game has the potential to PvP. However, by classing two groups as "pve" and "pvp" I am aiming to specifically meet the "wants and needs" of each group of player, that feel they belong more strongly to said group/s. I assure you I am not trolling one bit.

Now to explain the bold. Yes everyone is essentially a pvper. However, it's really unimportant for this argument. For the sake of arguing about police zones, two archeotypes have been formed. The PvPer and the PvEer. Each group want different thing, but must co-exist in the world as this is essentially beneficial to both parties. By identifying each Archeotype, we are able to accurately assess the views of different play-styles.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Before you acnowledge the FACT that there is no such thing as PVE and PVP groups in this game design;
only players that avoid direct player conforntation via wepons, and prefer using market instead.

This discussion is pointles.

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Gloryhole wrote:

Now to explain the bold. Yes everyone is essentially a pvper. However, it's really unimportant for this argument. For the sake of arguing about police zones, two archeotypes have been formed. The PvPer and the PvEer. Each group want different thing, but must co-exist in the world as this is essentially beneficial to both parties. By identifying each Archeotype, we are able to accurately assess the views of different play-styles.

In a sandbox game there are no categories like PvE or PvP. You try to setup a artificial category for your reasoning which is beyond reality.

Re: Remove Police Towers

He is not saying there is PvE and PvP, he is saying there are player archetypes connected to these two. Carebears and pirates if you will.
I'm just a lame dev but even I can understand this smile

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Remove Police Towers

I've got nothing. The clear and incessent denial that there is a different play-style to your own is getting me no-where. Clearly everyone is the same, thus wants the same thing in your views.

"LatscherX wrote:

You try to setup a artificial category for your reasoning which is beyond reality.

"Beyond reality", this makes no sense whatsoever to me. The reality is, players consider themselves as PvEers, whether you refuse to hold that the concept of "being a PvEer in a sandbox is impossible" or not, its irrelevent. I simply tried to break down the 2 arguments that splits the community, yet you both enagage in an argument of semantics, and sometimes Siddy, I really dont know what you are saying.

EDIT: Thankyou mr. "Lame Dev." I was starting to doubt my ability to express my oppinion!

Last edited by Gloryhole (2010-08-09 14:56:48)

Re: Remove Police Towers

Gloryhole wrote:
MadGelo wrote:

ts pritty simple
PVP part of the game is a must, becuase thats what drives the economy in games like this ( Steve comes to mind)
if you would allow people to be able to manufacture anything they want without slightest risk, game would be fun for economy people for awhile, untill the inflation hits. Because PVP limited to people who are just bored or wanna do it for fun (m2S) doesnt generate enough NIC sink.
that is why you have to make PVP zones very atractive to Econemy people who would then supply PVP people to fight for the zone that provides them with riches they want to build their empire.

Imagine if Steve didnt have 0.0

I missed the part where I disagreed with any of this. In fact, I pretty much said this when i said PvPers need PvEers and vice versa...My point is, simply taking down the police zones would do nothing for the PvPers in the current game we play. A ghost-town would ensue. How do i know this? Well on the island of Geingrosh, some of you have found me mining away safely in the police zones, I aint going outside without a decent escort. Who is going to come out on an ops in a CB, and spend 3-4 hours guarding me whilst I mine away outside of a police zone? Ergo the reasoning behind the ghost town.

Siddy if you want to argue semantics, then yes, fundamentally everyone in the game has the potential to PvP. However, by classing two groups as "pve" and "pvp" I am aiming to specifically meet the "wants and needs" of each group of player, that feel they belong more strongly to said group/s. I assure you I am not trolling one bit.

EDIT:

LatscherX wrote:

In primary school you learn that this is a paradoxon

Wtf Primary school did you go to? Jeez.

im not talking about now, but about when game goes live/open beta

Last edited by MadGelo (2010-08-09 14:59:08)

Grow up or die

Re: Remove Police Towers

Gloryhole wrote:

"Beyond reality", this makes no sense whatsoever to me. The reality is, players consider themselves as PvEers, whether you refuse to hold that the concept of "being a PvEer in a sandbox is impossible" or not, its irrelevent. I simply tried to break down the 2 arguments that splits the community, yet you both enagage in an argument of semantics, and sometimes Siddy, I really dont know what you are saying.

No.

a. I don't consider myslelf a PvPer and i know alot of others who don´t consider themselvss as PvE´ers but still like to hunt people.

You can't break down 2 arguments because there are no 2 arguments. You are making it even more artificial and abstract as it already is.

Re: Remove Police Towers

DEV Zoom wrote:

He is not saying there is PvE and PvP, he is saying there are player archetypes connected to these two. Carebears and pirates if you will.
I'm just a lame dev and even I can understand this smile


Muhamed's sake, Zoom. What part of "If i shoot your miners, you scream "grief". I scream "yarr", and miner on the other island scream "more proffit!" since you are out of his competetion loop for a while."

Is this eluding you? Like i sed, and admitted multiple times in THIS VERY THREAD myself: There is player segments that likes the direct aproach, guns blazing. And there is players that like more subtle way of playing, markets and intrique.

Both benefit if they work together, but by no means that makes one group PVP or PVE as many players in here try to make it sound.

The good old carebares vs pirate gambit is is just the economical nice where a solo casual player can contribute and grow without outside influence. Call it Higsec lvl 4 agent missions in npc corps. Becasuse even ore is contested in EVE on the belts.
This segment contribute miniscule amaunt to the economy as whole in EVE.
The economy in EVE is controlled by mega alliances that controll the flow of rare minerals that everyone needs.

This system is 100% in your face, anticarebare system wich works just fine, and is 100% player run and player regulated.

It saddens me to see such a dumbfound naivnes in DEV team

Last edited by Siddy (2010-08-09 15:14:14)

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Re: Remove Police Towers

Perpetuum Website

Players may take part in various areas of the project. They may fight against various enemy robots, complete assignments on behalf of the Perpetuum project, do various industrial activities, trade goods or services, or even set their own goals and set up their own corporations.

There will be a large part of the gamers that chose not to compete and/or not to PvP. AC acknowledges this and gives them the environment to work with. The 'true' PvPers can scream and whine as much as they like about this but it will never change. If you want PvP only feel free to create your own game.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Game experience may change during online play.

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: Remove Police Towers

Faxeir wrote:

Perpetuum Website

Players may take part in various areas of the project. They may fight against various enemy robots, complete assignments on behalf of the Perpetuum project, do various industrial activities, trade goods or services, or even set their own goals and set up their own corporations.

There will be a large part of the gamers that chose not to compete and/or not to PvP. AC acknowledges this and gives them the environment to work with. The 'true' PvPers can scream and whine as much as they like about this but it will never change. If you want PvP only feel free to create your own game.

What happens when my goal is versus your goal? correct. We compete. /thread

Stop perceiving words the way you want. :-)

Last edited by LatscherX (2010-08-09 15:25:02)