Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

F2P model would be the best for Perpetuum but it is really hard to implement due the game is designed.

There are several issues like character gaining EP over time which is easy for RMT character trading.
When the game has strong emphasis on manufacturing, what do you want to offer in an item mall and not to hinder player crafting?
It is also a game with strong emphasis on PVP so you cannot sell items that are in any way better than what is available in-game, that is again limiting your options for item mall.

etc.


I would say only specifically designed games can live off from item mall consisting of fluff solely, it is a good subsidiary income for a game with standard subscription model but I do not think Perpetuum could rely on it.

Banners are not really viable choice for a game from unknown team and minimal marketing.


Many issues with implementation.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I will never play Pay to Win game

nor would anyone else, exept for kiddies with momys card or asians ( duno why they like it so much)

Grow up or die

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

MadGelo wrote:

I will never play Pay to Win game

nor would anyone else, exept for kiddies with momys card or asians ( duno why they like it so much)

Yet, I bet you have already played a game where no lifers have edge over others.

There is not much difference between those two.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Maynard Benaui wrote:
MadGelo wrote:

I will never play Pay to Win game

nor would anyone else, exept for kiddies with momys card or asians ( duno why they like it so much)

Yet, I bet you have already played a game where no lifers have edge over others.

There is not much difference between those two.

Yes Iv tried both, Pay to win ( galaxy online) and nolifers heaven ( Aion)

was 1st and last time iv played  a games like that

thats why I know that F2P models are designed to steal your money


Perpetuum is totaly different game from both or i wouldnt be here

Grow up or die

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

MadGelo wrote:

Yes Iv tried both, Pay to win ( galaxy online) and nolifers heaven ( Aion)

was 1st and last time iv played  a games like that

thats why I know that F2P models are designed to steal your money

No one is stealing money from you.

The initial idea of paying for faster EP gain was great. Many F2P games are built that way, with real money spent, they allow you to achieve in-game things, just faster.

If the game becomes P2W is rather a matter of game design not a payment model, imo.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Maynard Benaui wrote:
MadGelo wrote:

Yes Iv tried both, Pay to win ( galaxy online) and nolifers heaven ( Aion)

was 1st and last time iv played  a games like that

thats why I know that F2P models are designed to steal your money

No one is stealing money from you.

The initial idea of paying for faster EP gain was great. Many F2P games are built that way, with real money spent, they allow you to achieve in-game things, just faster.

If the game becomes P2W is rather a matter of game design not a payment model, imo.

So again with what i said before, The rich get better while the poor get dominated. Ill mail my left nut to hungary if im wrong. Im with Madgelo on this.

Last edited by Osirus (2010-08-09 13:29:29)

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Maynard Benaui wrote:

The initial idea of paying for faster EP gain was great. imo.

wot?? yeah make in wow option: pay us x$ and ur new char will have max lvl in no time pfff
i thing most ppl here are tryinto avoid this...
the idea of lvling or making ur char better is simply destroyed that way, cause what's the point of making new char with little EP, because every new char will be maxed anyway at the very begining (via bought whole bunch of EP), ergo there is no point of having ep (exept for those who refuse to pay) ,just give new char with all skills maxed and make it like product = pay us a$ and have x EP char or b$ and have y EP char and so on, or pay nothing and suck...
In games like wow making char maxed takes limited time (and it's relatively short) here ur char is growing and evolving all the time (having char with all lvl 10 is almost impossible to achieve)
Srlsy what's the point??

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Also, a F2P model would more than likely be the end of any chance of an economy ever happening. People would create multiple accounts and become somewhat self sufficient. I know its been mentioned that paying customers would get faster EP gains, however, in order to be f2p the non-paying customer needs to believe they can compete on some level, so the EP gains wont be so bad that they scare them off.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Porzeczka wrote:
Maynard Benaui wrote:

The initial idea of paying for faster EP gain was great. imo.

wot?? yeah make in wow option: pay us x$ and ur new char will have max lvl in no time pfff
i thing most ppl here are tryinto avoid this...
the idea of lvling or making ur char better is simply destroyed that way, cause what's the point of making new char with little EP, because every new char will be maxed anyway at the very begining (via bought whole bunch of EP), ergo there is no point of having ep (exept for those who refuse to pay) ,just give new char with all skills maxed and make it like product = pay us a$ and have x EP char or b$ and have y EP char and so on, or pay nothing and suck...
In games like wow making char maxed takes limited time (and it's relatively short) here ur char is growing and evolving all the time (having char with all lvl 10 is almost impossible to achieve)
Srlsy what's the point??

First off, there is no leveling here. Purpose of EP in Perpetuum is not to 'progress' through the game but to differentiate players from each other. Different players, different EP, different capabilities.

Second, I said paying for faster EP gain, not buying EP. That is 2 different things. Difference between 'premium member' and freebie would be EP gain rate.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Maynard Benaui wrote:

First off, there is no leveling here. Purpose of EP in Perpetuum is not to 'progress' through the game but to differentiate players from each other. Different players, different EP, different capabilities.

Its not the purpose. Its free player choice.

Maynard Benaui wrote:

Second, I said paying for faster EP gain, not buying EP. That is 2 different things. Difference between 'premium member' and freebie would be EP gain rate.

Its the same. You buy a higher EP-Rate. Fail.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I like how I write a well summarized argument against this topic... and all posts afterward completely ignore it because they don't care to read it.

Give it a read, you might appreciate it.

But yeah, micro transactions are a horrible idea.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Generalising, but nevertheless:

Most F2P games:
- are programmed to fork as much cash out of players as possible in a short period of time, with little respect to gameplay and customer satisfaction/loyalty
- lack good support and steady bugfixes and upgrades
- attract worse communities

What is good for you as a company, i can't decide for you. For me personally, any form of F2P (even the fluffy flags and such) would be a complete turn-off. I rather pay 5 dollar/month more and have it all in one package.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

i vote for P2P , i wont play it as F2P as most F2P games gets total BS pretty soon by my experience

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

P2P all the way.

F2P games tend to be lower quality with emphasis on encouraging the customer to spend as much as possible through micro-transactions before the servers are inevitably taken offline...

DDO is the only exception to this, although it is still VERY aggressive with the "encouragement" to micro-pay for things.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Also on the P2P wagon, as someone who also spent an "obscene" amount of money on Galaxy Online in order to be a top player. I know first hand that pay-to-win games have a short life span, and bleed players of as much money as they can. And they really do "require" you do so in order to make any difference.

But I'm getting off-topic... Simply put, Pay-to-play, not Pay-to-win.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

p2p... especiall since the EP system is based on active payed time.

“The truth is balance. However the opposite of truth, which is unbalance, may not be a lie.”
(Susan Sontag)
Forum Moderator

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

I am against F2P idea. It's really bad system here. Many of you guys have good arguments why it's bad.

While F2P is in charge there are some guys that play for free, rest of guys have to pay for those guys. Most F2P players would be in fact weekend warriors that play up to 10h a month. Maybe it's not so big number but it makes developer have better servers etc. And those guys will never pay for the game. I think devs goal should be to get long term players that play for years. And what gives exhances like EP boost ? Those guys that play for years will stop paying after 2 years, some of them earlier, cause they have enough EP on their account. So this way I could make 1 race pretty good, it would take me about 9 months to do so, then I will stop paying. Is this the way we would like to see this game ? I don't. Other stuff, ok, long term players will pay for it anyway cause it's worth it.

I know this kind of game is hermetic, not many ppl would like to join in, play and pay for it. But in opinion F2P would kill that game. I prefer long term trial, at least month, when you can do something in that time, then you decide what to do next, pay or quit.

Summary: Bet on long term players, maniacs that wish to play this game, they will make you more money. In F2P+P2P, long term players will pay for F2P players, better servers (cause of F2P players existence), and F2P players won't do much difference to the game. This game is too complicated and multi-dimensional to do something like this.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

i'd pay to play this game already big_smile

Eve name - LT Jester / Mr Bright
Ingame - Pcchild / Halsoy / 8055

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Microtransactions done right can easily supplement and enhance a P2P model provided the cash shop is full of non-gameplay influencing items.

The City of franchise did a good job with this, giving players the option of little cosmetic DLC packs that didn't give a gameplay advantage. That's really the important point. microtransaction stuff should in no way influence gameplay or economics.

Some microtrans items I could see working for Perpetuum that don't alter gameplay or create a "deep pockets" gameplay advantage:

Custom corp logo: PNG of size X, rather than using the ingame editor.

Bot paint jobs: Ideally, I'd say *extra* bot paint jobs, as that seems like a system that everyone should have at least some access to if its included.

Corp ads: Rent ad space in the NPC terminals, displayed as part of the wallpaper interface, includes your corp logo and whatever text. These ads loop constantly through all purchased ads. Single fee gives your corp the right to keep an ad or change it in one single terminal until the corp ends (gives something else for that PR manager position to be in charge of as well)

Also, bangin' subwoofers and 22 inch gold rims wink

Last edited by Urban (2010-08-23 20:34:57)

Privateering - It's like piracy with a price tag.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Urban wrote:

Stuff (arguing that microtransactions are good)

no.

bump less threads. There are relevant posts in this thread. If you want to join in, you need to discuss their points, not just tack on yours. Or else we get to ignore your posts as you do ours.

<Kwitch> I tried to RE Epriton. The game lol'd @ me.
<Siddy> i hope your brains go enouhght processing poweres to realise the problem
<Socrates> ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα / "The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

About ads my first though was product placement. Too pity there would be too small amount of players watching those adverts but it might be some kind of money income.

Waiting to see COCA COLA logo on some mountain near terminal big_smile.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Kwitch wrote:

Pay attention to me!

No.

Actually, Urban's suggestions are probably some of the ONLY methods of micro-transactions that I would accept along with a subscription.  These things wont affect gameplay and mechanics and balance, only cool looking stuff and some extra corp promotion.

I would even go as far as giving the owner of a particular outpost to have their corp logo/banner/etc shown in the terminal to everyone who docks up there.

As for him being required to reply to other replies in this thread, its way too long and filled with mostly crap about other games to really worry about finding every decent post to refute or agree with.  He actually makes some good points in his post and I think its easily worthy of being part of this discussion.

If these cash shop items were ONLY for aesthetics and things like that, I would tolerate it.  It would be a good way for AC to get some extra cash for those who have it, and not scare away the players that dont because it wont unbalance the game.

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Well, sorry i may have missed some post, even if i tried (really hard ...) to read everything ...
But cant we think GuildWars business model could also be good option?

Another option: Unlock bots tiers availability with micropayment.
Add some "one-time transactions" for some account "bonus" like:
Mechs color schemes
Mechs customization (some different looking parts ... head/legs/arms ...)
Char renaming
Some kind of respec: stats reallocation, limited amount of EP reallocation

One sure thing, devs must be sure watever they choose, it wont fit witheverybody. And i have no problem with p2p option, just Perp doesnt deserve 15$ a month ...

Re: F2P, P2P, Micropay...

Bambi wrote:

Another option: Unlock bots tiers availability with micropayment.

No.  People can be just as effective only using light bots (ewar).  Making other people pay more just because they use bigger classes doesnt make sense.

Add some "one-time transactions" for some account "bonus" like:
Mechs color schemes
Mechs customization (some different looking parts ... head/legs/arms ...)

Again, I can get on board with this, as it wont affect actual game play, just give more customization fun for people who can afford it.

Char renaming

*** NO.  I dont even have to explain why.

Some kind of respec: stats reallocation, limited amount of EP reallocation

Eh... maybe..... but that gives the option for FOTM and some uber builds that are utterly useless other than specific situations which puts the advantage in the hands of those that can afford multiple respecs when its convenient.  It would have to be quite limited in order for it to work.

One sure thing, devs must be sure watever they choose, it wont fit witheverybody. And i have no problem with p2p option, just Perp doesnt deserve 15$ a month ...

I think it is worth $15, or at least easily has the potential for it (we're still in beta and things are being added regularly remember).

BUT, they have said that it will probably be cheaper than most other MMO's, so expect something like $10 or something lower (since it will probably be based on Euro or something)