Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Judging by how many cans were sitting out there, and that he was driving the same low-level hull I was, he would have been out of cargo long ago.

In any case, it's a tragedy of the commons problem that really needs to be resolved by release.   I imagine a significant amount of players, upon feeling equally victimized by an inability to complete their missions, would quit the game and never come back upon encountering this - at least so very early in the game that completing the missions is essentially how they are finding their niche within it.

Last edited by Galdron (2010-05-29 00:22:04)

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

i realise that this might seem like an odd question, but why did you even feel the need to complete the mission at all? the measly 5000 reward is worth 1/3 what the npc pays for a single miner that those same drones drop. just go to a different spawn zone and kill them there. or find some other npc's, there's plenty around that a basic arkhe can take out.
as for cargo space, well, maybe he was just killing them for ammo+kernels. or something. i dunno.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Oblivion wrote:

That other game gives double learning for x amount of points because it allows new players to get up to speed more quickly. That was, however, a post-release feature.

I do think that it is an idea which has merit. If everyone is gaining EP at the same rate nobody has an advantage. If the first 2 weeks or month or two months (or whatever) are double speed, then you have more ability to play around with your character(s) . . .

we realise there is still aways to go with the core game atm but i think a lot of people would like to see the early stages of the game by the time release comes around moved towards a better progression curve.

Great MMO's have a fairly rapid curve in the first 1-10 hours of gameplay, introducing players to a lot of new experiences and giving them a much larger sense of accomplishment than is currently awarded in the game as it is.  I've played countless mmo's from release, a few from beta and a few from middle to late games stages.  The mmo's that lost their playerbase a few months after release(more so than the normal continental drift of people who found it wasnt what they were looking for) did so because the early stages of the game became too time consuming to break through to the middle to late game stages.

None of us want an easy ride, i think that also ruins a game and more so attracts a certain type of player that tends to also ruin a games community.  The balance between grindcore and easyride isnt easy obviously.  But neither would any of us who have taken a great liking to the concept of this game want to see it be pushed back into the realms of obscurity come release because players have quit in frustration of feeling all there is to do is grind.

Sandbox is great but honestly when you try to take some things to too realistic a level it becomes too much like real life and quite frankly real life is one big grind and no one wants to leave RL just to do exactly the same RL style grind inside their escape from reality.

I Hope most of us keep pushing for a slight adjustment in the future to whats available to players in the beginning of this game because despite what those with a lot of free time or a propensity for mindless grind say, it does need that curve to be adjusted.  Expanding the range and tiers of mechs prior to release and having their expansion requirements more closely staggered would be a quick and dirty method of giving the early game the visible progression people desire.

Reducing swarming on a few of the early level drone mobs while increasing the spawn size i think is something else that should be considered prior to release.

Maybe a community driven assignment system too, introducing the ability for players and corps to put up their own assignments for the rest of the playerbase to maybe compete to fulfill, like material orders, crafts, pvp objectives, bountys on other players heads with the players/corps putting up the NIC reward for such assignments. obviously this suggestion is merely a fancy but my previous points i think should be taken into consideration since there are quite a few players who feel this way.

All said i love the concept so far i think the possibilties are endless for sandbox games like these i just hope the balance can be struck to make it successful at release and keep players captivated by grabbing them and dragging them into the middle stages of the game before they've even realised that from now there will never be any other game for them, their on full auto and grinning like a berserk maniac raining fiery lead down upon those who would stand between him and his only route to redemption.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Prophet wrote:

i realise that this might seem like an odd question, but why did you even feel the need to complete the mission at all? the measly 5000 reward is worth 1/3 what the npc pays for a single miner that those same drones drop. just go to a different spawn zone and kill them there. or find some other npc's, there's plenty around that a basic arkhe can take out.
as for cargo space, well, maybe he was just killing them for ammo+kernels. or something. i dunno.

While I'm a newbie, I'm not a newbie without bias, as I've played EVE Online, so I knew that breaking down the stuff I found into resources seemed to reward a whole lot more than doing the mission.

However, what you have to understand from a game development standpoint is that missions direct people, particularly newbies who don't know any better, and so if you are steering newbies in the direction of a situation that makes them feel complete helplessness, your design channels people in a situation that will only drive them away: it's  game design suicide.

Besides, the behavior of this guy made it rather hard to test how well the mission was working.  I couldn't even move on to another spawn area because the mission requires I recover boxes from these specific drones.  Nor did I know how to communicate with that putz to see if he'd be willing to part with 5 kills.

Last edited by Galdron (2010-05-29 02:29:03)

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Ok I also just started into the game , and coming from Eve myself, was able to figure out quite a few things right off. However the above poster was quite correct in stating that the opening tutorial is entirely to short. Things as simple as opening the Help channel, repairing gear, and figuring out NPC damage types where not at all defined.

The tutorial really should cover the basics of everything a lot better - its your first foray into an entirely new world, and while the learning curve will always be steep (and thats not a bad thing) , the basics should be explained to the lowest common denominator in a simplified fashion.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Hiro Apropos wrote:

opening the Help channel ... not at all defined.

it's open by default.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Yeah somehow I managed to cloes it neutral Figured it out though, wasnt to hard.

Some more simple observations though - Extensions are, by default set to what you can use, and first impression is that that is all there is. Having everything open by default with a hint that you can close it to a minimum may be a better thing to do. I opened everything , and comparing what does what to Eve, started down what I think will be a decent pathway to max cap, hp, etc , but for those who havent played Eve , it may not be that intuitive.

Been moving further afield with my upgrades to hit harder stuff, but havent been able to find a guide to the landmarks yet that explain what the different symbols mean (although its fairly apparent) nor what the colors next to landmark names mean (although I looked, all I could find was that it reflected the map) , so a small section in the Help dedicated to that might be nice.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

With a little research and exploration of the UI anyone can pretty much figures how the game works, especially if they've played EvE before. If you're really clueless, you can always ask on the help channel and people will gladly give a hand and/or send a few hundreds Ks.
Yeah, bigger and more complete tutorial is always welcome, but quoting EvE isn't that relevant, as it had almost no tuto at all for years.

Also, things being tedious is a subjective entry. Trust me, I've got a different definition to tedium after playing EvE 0.0 for 4 years than someone who hasn't. Because of that (and there are a few hundreds K of EvE players that would agree) tedium is irrelevant as long as the reward and the stakes make the bigger picture interesting enough to justify it.

Double xp to EvE beginners was added after more than 5 years from release, because by that time there were hundreds of skills and really old vets as a core playerbase. Main problem with EPs right now isn't the EP speed, it's that there isn't much to do ingame (no real economy/trading, few missions accessible to new players, etc.) for a newbie except looking forward to a bigger robot.
EP system is made so you could do something else instead of lvl/skill-grind, but its perks are highly dependant on how much content you have to occupy your playtime. It's gonna get better as devs add said content, so no need to touch it as of yet.



You should never take lightly to reduce the gap between point A and point B in character development/equipment, even for a beginner. Instead, you could add mid points A-A1-A2-A3-A4-B if you think it's needed. It's good because it adds richness.
Making things easier/quicker on the other hand is just hurting the game in the end by killing the sense of achievement and reducing the "value" of it (which then have a negative influence on PvP, geopolitical combat, industry, etc...).

For what it's worth the devs have my support, while not yet perfect the game is headed a nice route.

Last edited by Kogaratsu (2010-06-01 14:20:03)

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Kogaratsu wrote:

Double xp to EvE beginners was added after more than 5 years from release

this was because they reduced your starting SP from ~800k to ~45k, so they gave double training rate up to 1.6mil to make it take the same time to get to 1.6m as it had done before. nothing was really changed except giving players a bit more control over their first skills.

personally I think this is a better way to do things than to give players a bunch of skills during character creation, because at that stage, you don't have their descriptions, you don't know what they do, so it's kind of meaningless. better to start the player with less but allow them to pick and choose what they want, and give them a small training bonus at the start just to get them going. we're not talking about reducing the gap to veterans, we're talking about giving you a chance to get into the game a bit quicker in the first couple weeks, that's all.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Prophet wrote:

this was because they reduced your starting SP from ~800k to ~45k, so they gave double training rate up to 1.6mil to make it take the same time to get to 1.6m as it had done before. nothing was really changed except giving players a bit more control over their first skills.

You're taking it the wrong way.
800k xp characters were there for a short time, around 4 years and a half after release. 2x xp came as a replacement for that (and I agree was a better solution), but for several years we stood with very low sp starting characters, and the older players among us even had the chance to be limited to the original archetypes which were vastly subpar to the asian bloodlines (achura, khanids mostly) stats wise.

So once again, proposing to give a bonus to training as we're still in beta would be absurd imho, as it was a "patch up" solution in EvE to closen the gap between newbies and many years vets.
If progression speed of new players isn't satisfying then it's the complexity level for some of the "easy" Extensions out there that needs tweaking. We still have our nose in the engine around here, so better make proper adjustments and not complexify a solid system with a deus ex machina.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

well i've been playing for over a week and i still can't even fit out my light bot in all slots because of rp/cpu issues. i can't get into assault bots unless i want to ignore the rp/cpu skills and this means my assault is going to have even worse fitting problems. it shouldn't take 2 weeks to be able to drive the most basic bots with a fairly basic fitting, imo.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Prophet wrote:

well i've been playing for over a week and i still can't even fit out my light bot in all slots because of rp/cpu issues. i can't get into assault bots unless i want to ignore the rp/cpu skills and this means my assault is going to have even worse fitting problems. it shouldn't take 2 weeks to be able to drive the most basic bots with a fairly basic fitting, imo.

I think that if you want a long term type of game (and I think Perpetuum aims to be a loooong term game) this is the price you need to pay. It takes time to master light bots and it will take even more time to properly drive heavier bots.

Let's take an example. If you have tried STO you probably know that a game that gives you too much too fast is going to get boring too soon. A game like Perpetuum (and EVE the first couple of years was very similar to it) has to be hard to master: otherwise we will be all screaming out of boredom in few weeks.

If this means that Perpetuum will not be appreciated by the consumers of mass-appealing games then so be it, it will conquer a niche and it will prosper into it like EVE did.

Do I think that the game needs tweaks and adjustments in the way players progression is handled? Sure I do, but not in the direction of making characters grow faster: small bits of content put in the middle of the road will make growth more meaningful and increase the sense of accomplishment for the players.

Let's give DEVs time to fill their world and I'm sure your worries will disappear.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Prophet wrote:

well i've been playing for over a week and i still can't even fit out my light bot in all slots because of rp/cpu issues. i can't get into assault bots unless i want to ignore the rp/cpu skills and this means my assault is going to have even worse fitting problems. it shouldn't take 2 weeks to be able to drive the most basic bots with a fairly basic fitting, imo.

Well in fact you start in the most basic bot with a fairly basic fitting. And the Arkhe is good enough so you can stay in it a bit longer than you'd stay in your noobship on EvE, say, the time to develop your fitting skills some more for example.

That said, I don't know what you've done wrong, but I've had no problem activating and fitting a light bot (weapons, light rep, hardener, add a weapon upgrd if you're a bit more skilled) within less than a week from start.

39

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

The noob bot with a few tweaks does quit well at farming, for starters. I found it easy to make NIC.

I also have had no problem fitting out a light bot....must be in proper placement of EP.
At first I thought maybe I had put to much beginning EP into robot control and combat, but 
after watching how long it takes for some ppl to kill a drone, I must of done something
right. I find the beginning grind easy as a noob just starting. Maybe playing other games
of the same type have helped me with setting up my agent.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Many of you asume that arkhe = noob ship of stEVE

You are, ofcorse, wrong.

How many of you have fallen to M2S arkhe?

Quite many, actualy have lost light bots to our arkhe's.

Hell, we have killed lights, assaults, mechs and even a mesmer with arkhes (our gropho aidet the mesmer kill ^^ but yeah)

So dont you dish arkhe just because you blow at everything related to perpetuum and are unwilling to learn.

Last edited by Siddy (2010-06-02 23:06:35)

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Siddy wrote:

Many of you asume that arkhe = noob ship of stEVE

You are, ofcorse, wrong.

How many of you have fallen to M2S arkhe?

Quite many, actualy have lost light bots to our arkhe's.

Hell, we have killed lights, assaults, mechs and even a mesmer with arkhes (our gropho aidet the mesmer kill ^^ but yeah)

So dont you dish arkhe just because you blow at everything related to perpetuum and are unwilling to learn.

Translation follows:

Many of you assume that the arkhe is akin to the noob ship of stEVE. You are, of course, wrong. How many of you have fallen to a M2S arkhe? Quite a lot have lost light bots to our arkhes. Hell, we have killed lights, assaults, mechs and even a mesmer with arkhes. (Our gropho aided the mesmer kill ^^ but yeah.) So don't you dis arkhes just because you suck at everything related to perpetuum, and are unwilling to learn.

End translation...

Disclaimer: M2S rarely supports the message given in Siddy's random outbursts of incomprehensible gibberish. But we do find them damn funny, and hence encourage him to continue.

[img]http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5295/legionofdoom.jpg[/img]

Last edited by Dreadnought (2010-06-03 06:49:16)

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Dreadnought wrote:

Disclaimer: M2S rarely supports the message given in Siddy's random outbursts of incomprehensible gibberish. But we do find them damn funny, and hence encourage him to continue.

we should all encourage him he not only entertains M2S but the community in general and some times even has brief moments of lucidness and even insight.

As to the rest of the discussion, I remember a loong while back in my first days before factional drones, sequers and assignments, that even though killing arkhes was quite boring and arduous it actually trained me very well and quite safely in the skills i now use all the time hunting bigger harder npcs, and a good proportion of the skills i use in the occasional pvp.  really don't knock it.

Kill drones, factional and non afford your first light bot and get in that play around with different modules etc. take a few days to just do that with the odd exploration trip thrown in. hang out in help chat to some random people before you know it you will have been there a week and have earned and spent enough EP to be close to an assault bot, have a great understanding of the way things work a good idea of the game territory and a bunch of contacts.

Thats my advice to new players, worked for me and I am still here.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Tailn wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:

Disclaimer: M2S rarely supports the message given in Siddy's random outbursts of incomprehensible gibberish. But we do find them damn funny, and hence encourage him to continue.

we should all encourage him he not only entertains M2S but the community in general and some times even has brief moments of lucidness and even insight.

As to the rest of the discussion, I remember a loong while back in my first days before factional drones, sequers and assignments, that even though killing arkhes was quite boring and arduous it actually trained me very well and quite safely in the skills i now use all the time hunting bigger harder npcs, and a good proportion of the skills i use in the occasional pvp.  really don't knock it.

Kill drones, factional and non afford your first light bot and get in that play around with different modules etc. take a few days to just do that with the odd exploration trip thrown in. hang out in help chat to some random people before you know it you will have been there a week and have earned and spent enough EP to be close to an assault bot, have a great understanding of the way things work a good idea of the game territory and a bunch of contacts.

Thats my advice to new players, worked for me and I am still here.

Best advise I have seen given to starting players of this game.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

FYI

If I recall correctly. My alt was in the first mech in about 2 weeks of EP. TO me that doesn't seem to be bad at all. Of course it took about 1 more week of EP to extension up some core stuff. This also included very much needed extension for pvp to use demob etc.

If you guys can't fit your bots and mechs you need to look at core skills the reduce the reactor and cpu usage for armor mods and weapons.

END FYI

Perpetuum Community Wizard Guy!
For beginning video tutorials please visit: http://gremrod.wordpress.com
Perpetuum Short stories: http://perpetuumfiles.wordpress.com/ Written by me.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Rod of Grem, after of pre nerf of the EP need of the mech exstesion?

Offensive signature. - DEV Zoom

Rawr, fear my signature.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

The learning curve in this game is enormous. The tutorials border on the useless/ditto the info and the grind at the beginning is probably the dullest I have ever encountered. People are coming to this game thinking its a Mech MMO, instead its spider robot shooting grind.

I enjoy the look and feel of the game, but the gameplay is rather lacking.

The mining tutorial is quite poor. Its really doesn't explain anything and its quite frustrating.

I know that hard-core players don't care but I can't see the attraction for noobs.

Its foolish to assume that everyone coming to this game will have played EVE and/or know it well. I, for one, never played the game at all. I have lots of MMO experience, played em' since they were 2D.

Last edited by Lagwolf (2010-06-19 22:47:23)

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

It seems that for a Closed Beta, a certain amount of pro-activness is required but the user. Which is quite understandable. Things like checking out Grem's youtube vids (which helped me alot, thankyou!) are almost required for a new person to the game. Like I said, people in CB are normally pro-active and will seek out stuff like this. However, come release or even OB, in my experience, the masses will react differently.

At the end of the day it's up to the devs (and somewhat, the community) to work out what they want in the game. Something that caters to the masses, or is only for the hardcore, or somewhere in between.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

I honestly think that the newbie experience could be improved in a -big- way by reducing the cost curve of gear a bit in the beginning and offering 1-3 more specialized service bots for a reasonable price.  Even if their look and feel does not change at all from the standard 'bot, having one with an extra turret slot and less CPU, having one with an extra industrial slot and one with an extra head slot, each having maybe 15% more health or so, would be a significant enough upgrade to make people feel as though they were moving forward.  As it is, I'm having a tough time grinding my way up to a new mech, and although I understand that I don't have that much knowledge about this game yet, by the time I'd spent this much time in EVE, I was sitting in a Thrasher and gearing towards long-range artillery spec. 
That's my first time through, with no extra knowledge, and it was in the days before the incredible 10-step tutorial that gave new ships.
I think it's imperative that the devs add a few more low-level items and improve the capacity to get more specialized service mechs early on.  A few more low-level slight-upgrade/sidegrades would allow people to do their farming for a real mech faster, and if it were a reasonable cost (150k NIC or so wouldn't be horrendous) and could carry some better stuff... well, it'd be nicer.
Also, crafting seems prohibitively expensive.  I'm not all that good at recycling and such yet, but I'd need to find fifty or sixty things to break down to get -close- to building this Malleus gun that I researched the build pattern for.

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

Basically just a quick rehash of what jack said above. we already have factional drones in that use the arkhe model why not add the factional arkhe as a usable bot.
Bonus's to racial weapons that let you ease into using them over the firearms. The racial armor resists to accustom you to them. and maybe some slightly better fitting abilities. keep it at only 2 guns but with a better racial weapons bonus it would do slightly better. the normal 5% compared to the arkhes 2% for firearms. This gives you a lowercase entry into racial specific robots without the straight jump to the light bot. Could even reward it at the end of a longer chain of tutorial missions or something.

Example Bot

Nuimqol Arkhe
Bonus's
5% Small Magnetic Weapon Damage
5% Armor Repair Cycle Time
5% Falloff Bonus

230 AP            - Accumulator Capacity
125 Seconds    - Accumulator Recharge
115 TF             - Cpu Preformance
125 RP            - Reactor Preformance

625 HP            - Armor
30                  - Chem Resist
45                  - Kinetic Resist
150                - Seismic Resist
10                  - Thermal Resist

2 Misc Slots
1 Head Slot
2 Industrial Slots
2 Leg Slots
1 Missile Slot
2 Turret Slots

even though it now has the same bonus as the light bot the limitation of only 2 guns as opposed to the light bots 4 means it will be doing at maximum half the damage of a light bot under the same circumstances. speed and such could be adjusted so that it doesn't maintain the much faster arkhe speed over the slower light bots, and the lower accumulator and fitting would mean that it would still be easier to fit and run gear on a light bot.

could even do an industrial arkhe that has the miner amount increase bonus but not the cycle time bonus. I think this array of small bots would provide a good entry into the faction specific bot line as well as a decent  short term goal for new players.

Last edited by Nick Fury (2010-06-22 12:40:58)

Re: beginner experience - grind or no grind?

In reference to Gremrod's post, I've been playing just over two weeks and got into a mech actually bang on the two week mark. It'll take a few days for my extensions to fill out a bit but it was a useable machine from the moment I stepped in.